Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[101G]

to all, a question, "How Long was Adam and EVE in the Garden before the fall".... give scripture for any TIME PERIOD.

101G

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

wrong as sin has consequences

Sin has consequences. Spiritual and material.
But biological death, observed in all species, is not one of those consequences.
Neither earthquakes or supernovas.

when everything was created good there were no carnivores- that is a result of sin and the curse.

May I ask why do you say that?
Carnivores are a blessing, not a curse. It is GOOD to have carnivores in God's creation, as well as scavengers, and bacteria that decompose our bodies.

 

[civic]

Sin has consequences. Spiritual and material.
But biological death, observed in all species, is not one of those consequences.
Neither earthquakes or supernovas.



May I ask why do you say that?
Carnivores are a blessing, not a curse. It is GOOD to have carnivores in God's creation, as well as scavengers, and bacteria that decompose our bodies.

no there was only vegetarians prefall- that is spelled out in Genesis.

 

[synergy]

By respect, @synergy and @civic, I am referring to this:

DNA reflects God's wisdom and providence.
Random reactions could never have created the complex set of instructions that DNA convey.
In DNA we have instructions for every single structure within our cells to perform a diversity of duties. It has also the instructions on how to interact with nearby cells and the surrounding environment. We praise God for this.

Therefore, if we respect DNA as a reflection of God's wisdom, we should also respect that it contains the instructions to age and die.

God programmed Man to die after Adam's Fall. That is perfectly in line with the truth of Genesis.

Biological immortality would be catastrophic... particularly in the face of reproduction, which was part of the plan of God.

So Christ's immortality as a biological human (in addition to his Divinity) is "catastrophic"???

So, in the programmed death instructions present in all species, including men, we find the DNA reflecting God's love.
We cannot say that some of the DNA reflects God's plan and some reflect Adam's sin... the same way we could not say that we accept some teachings from Jesus but reject others.

We cannot say that it is God's plan that antelopes eat grass, but it is Adam's sin what makes leopards eat antelopes. That would show lack of respect for reality, through which God manifests.

I have no problem with animal and plant lifecycles both before and after the Fall. As for man, the Bible makes many distinctions between man and animals. If you don't see that then that's another reason why your allah is a fake god.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

to all, a question, "How Long was Adam and EVE in the Garden before the fall".... give scripture for any TIME PERIOD.

101G

According to the story, God gave his commandment as soon as He put Adam in the garden of Even.
"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die."

Why would the serpent wait thousands of years before tempting Eve, if it really was intending to deceive her?
The way the serpent speaks implies that the commandment was still fresh, recent in Adam and Eve's minds.
Besides, Adam and Eve had not reproduced, and reproduction had been an order of God.
If Adam and Eve had disobeyed the order of God to reproduce, that would have been characterized as the first sin.

Based on that, from the perspective of the story itself (which I do not consider a historical account), the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden before the fall was short... I would even say that less than 9 months.

 

[civic]

God programmed Man to die after Adam's Fall. That is perfectly in line with the truth of Genesis.

So Christ's immortality as a biological human (in addition to his Divinity) is "catastrophic"???

I have no problem with animal and plant lifecycles both before and after the Fall. As for man, the Bible makes many distinctions between man and animals. If you don't see that then that's another reason why your allah is a fake god.

as we know all believers will be immortal in the resurrection just like Jesus.

 

[civic]

According to the story, God gave his commandment as soon as He put Adam in the garden of Even.
"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die."

Why would the serpent wait thousands of years before tempting Eve, if it really was intending to deceive her?
The way the serpent speaks implies that the commandment was still fresh, recent in Adam and Eve's minds.
Besides, Adam and Eve had not reproduced, and reproduction had been an order of God.
If Adam and Eve had disobeyed the order of God to reproduce, that would have been characterized as the first sin.

Based on that, from the perspective of the story itself (which I do not consider a historical account), the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden before the fall was short... I would even say that less than 9 months.

notice He didn't say to eat any animal did He ?

 

[101G]

According to the story, God gave his commandment as soon as He put Adam in the garden of Even.
"Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die."

Why would the serpent wait thousands of years before tempting Eve, if it really was intending to deceive her?
The way the serpent speaks implies that the commandment was still fresh, recent in Adam and Eve's minds.
Besides, Adam and Eve had not reproduced, and reproduction had been an order of God.
If Adam and Eve had disobeyed the order of God to reproduce, that would have been characterized as the first sin.

Based on that, from the perspective of the story itself (which I do not consider a historical account), the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden before the fall was short... I would even say that less than 9 months.

Great and thanks for the reply, but 101G must disagree with that assessment, and here's why. A. Adam and Eve had children in the Garden, before the fall. scripture, Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

here the terms "sorrow" and "conception" mean,
Sorrow: H6093 עִצָּבוֹן `itstsabown (its-tsaw-ɓone') n-m.
worrisomeness, i.e. labor or pain.
[from H6087]
KJV: sorrow, toil.
Root(s): H6087

conception: H2032 הֵרוֹן herown (hay-rone') n-m.
הֵרָיוֹן herayown (hay-raw-yone')
pregnancy.
[from H2029]
KJV: conception.
Root(s): H2029

the scripture states, "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; this term multiply indicate that it had happen before, which support the scripture, Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

so, in order to multiply/increase something, it must first have to happen in order to increase/multiply it. example, to increase/multiply a car speed one must first have to be in motion.

so, that will not approve your assumption.

101G

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have no problem with animal and plant lifecycles both before and after the Fall.

So, you do recognize that biological death in animals, plants, bacteria, etc was NOT the result of sin.
What you believe is that the biological death of men, our species, is the result of sin. Am I understanding you correctly?

As for man, the Bible makes many distinctions between man and animals.

From a materialistic point of view expressed in Ecclesiastes 3:19, man and animal bodies have no difference in mortality
"For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. "

 

[civic]

So, you do recognize that biological death in animals, plants, bacteria, etc was NOT the result of sin.
What you believe is that the biological death of men, our species, is the result of sin. Am I understanding you correctly?


From a materialistic point of view expressed in Ecclesiastes 3:19, man and animal bodies have no difference in mortality
"For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. "

under the sun= from mans POV- not Gods.

context is King.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So Christ's immortality as a biological human (in addition to his Divinity) is "catastrophic"???

If Christ had a biological body and were given the order to reproduce, and beget biologically immortal children within this planet which in turn would reproduce to beget more biologically immortal children on earth, yes, it would be catastrophic.

Fortunately, as Paul says: "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

under the sun= from mans POV- not Gods.

context is King.

Sure. I'm not referring to the perspective that Ecclesiastes has about the spirit, but about the body.
Ecclesiasts is an inspired book because it give us a human perspective that is also needed for our lives. Otherwise, you wouldn't consider it inspired, right? If the author of Ecclesiastes had been a scientific of our time, he would still have been inspired to talk about the similarities in our bodies with the bodies of animals.

The best way to know how God thinks about our bodies and the bodies of animals and plants is to study those bodies. That is called science.

 

[101G]

From a materialistic point of view expressed in Ecclesiastes 3:19, man and animal bodies have no difference in mortality
"For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. "

true in sin, or the effect of sin, entropy. but did this exist before the fall into sin?

101G

 

[civic]

If Christ had a biological body and were given the order to reproduce, and beget biologically immortal children within this planet which in turn would reproduce to beget more biologically immortal children on earth, yes, it would be catastrophic.

there will be no child bearing in the resurrection and the new heavens and earth. a biblical fact of the future.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

there will be no child bearing in the resurrection and the new heavens and earth. a biblical fact of the future.

I was just answering to the supposition made by @synergy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

true in sin, or the effect of sin, entropy. but did this exist before the fall into sin?

101G

Yes, entropy is embedded in the laws of physics of the universe.
It it weren't for entropy, and the death of other beings, we would not be here having this conversation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

notice He didn't say to eat any animal did He ?

That's right. He didn't say it.

What do you think of my answer that the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden, before the Fall, should have been short... perhaps less than 9 months?

(I'm making that supposition taking the story as a starting point. I do not believe it is a historical account, but a myth or parable)

 

[101G]

Yes, entropy is embedded in the laws of physics of the universe.
It it weren't for entropy, and the death of other beings, we would not be here having this conversation.

Great, so was entropy in effect in the beginning?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Great, so was entropy in effect in the beginning?

Yes, my friend.

 

[101G]

Yes, my friend.

thanks, but reading the scriptures, a Law is not in effect until it is written, and is not God in Power to do that? example, Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

well now the decay of the body was not in effect until Adam disobeyed. so the Law of DECAY was not in effect, until God allowed it. would you agree?

101G