Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[Pancho Frijoles]

thanks, but reading the scriptures, a Law is not in effect until it is written, and is not God in Power to do that? example, Genesis 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

well now the decay of the body was not in effect until Adam disobeyed. so the Law of DECAY was not in effect, until God allowed it. would you agree?

101G

No, because I don't consider the story of Genesis the source of knowledge about mechanisms for ageing, disease or death.
I consider the Bible primarily as a tool for spiritual development.

 

[101G]

No, because I don't consider the story of Genesis the source of knowledge about mechanisms for ageing, disease or death.
I consider the Bible primarily as a tool for spiritual development.

so then the resurrection of a body that never decay have no effect in entropy is this correct? yes or no.

101G

 

[Studyman]

Gen 3:16 proves that there was no human death (separation of body and soul) before Adam's sin. Do you agree?

I agree that there was no human death until God made humans. If Adam was the first human, then his death would have been the first human death. There would be, then, no human death until the first human died.

I already explained how I interpreted that passage. I wrote: "as for plant life, it will be less yielding in its fruits". Since you didn't argue against it, it looks like you agree with me.

I asked you a question that you refused to answer. If you want to interpret that as "agreeing with you", who am I to stop you?

So why did God decree the separation of Adam's soul from his body at that specific moment of time? He just felt like doing that one day? Is that what you're saying?

When did God tell Adam HE was going to separate Adams soul from his body? Please post the Scripture where God "Decreed this".

You forget about Adam's soul. Are you an soul annihilationist that believes that his soul is annihilated when he dies? You have a tendency to follow popular worldly philosophies. To each his own.

Actually, you are ignoring my post all together and creating a strawman in which to argue against. Here is what I actually posted; in case you might be inclined to give an honest reply to my actual post.

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You guys are trying to promote the philosophy that Adam and Eves flesh was created to live forever until they sinned.

But that isn't what the Scriptures are saying at all. They never took of the tree of life, not before they had sinned anyway. I think these Scriptures mean something, even if they contradict popular religious philosophies in the garden God placed us in".

How could Adam's body or soul "live forever" unless they ate of the Tree of Life? Or are you one of these worlds "Many" who come in Christ's Name, that Jesus warned about, who preach Adam was born with an immortal Soul?

You forget that the Garden of Eden is a Garden. There could have been physiological differences between the natural state of the Garden and the natural state of the rest of the Earth and Universe.

I asked for evidence of your preaching in this matter, and you provided nothing. Are we all not placed in a Garden which differ from other places on earth? Do we each not have our own unique experiences in the Garden God placed us in? Was there not a difference between Adam's life experience and Eve's life experience, even though they both lived in the same Garden?

The Holy Scriptures is for the very purpose of "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", not to be cherry picked as a tool of self-justification.

Adam was not born with an immortal soul or body. He, like all men, must first eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever.

Gen. 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Clearly Adam had not yet eaten of the Tree of Life.

The Jesus "of the Bible" Himself teaches the same thing:

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; "and my reward is with me", to give every man according as "his work" shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may "have right" to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So God's Word from the beginning to the end is telling you that men are not born with Immortality. That they must first "DO" something. But the religious businesses of this world you have adopted, the "other voice" in the Garden God placed us in, is telling you, "You shall surely not die". It's so simple even a child could understand, as Paul teaches to those who believe him.

2 Cor. 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Instead of getting angry and offended by me pointing these undeniable biblical Truths out to you, and continue justifying yourself all the time. Why not consider what is actually written, and remember that the Jesus "of the bible" SPECIFICALLY warned you about the "many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name" to deceive us, and Take Heed of them, instead of simply ignoring what is written in Scriptures?

That is all I advocate.

Your philosophical belief of soul annihilationism is one of your worldly beliefs. To each his own.

I have a hard time keeping up with all the labels and bumper stickers you guys always judge others by. It seems like it would edify to seek God's Truth more, and self-justification less.

 

[civic]

That's right. He didn't say it.

What do you think of my answer that the time Adam and Eve spent in the Garden, before the Fall, should have been short... perhaps less than 9 months?

(I'm making that supposition taking the story as a starting point. I do not believe it is a historical account, but a myth or parable)

then there is no need to discuss it with you since we both have a different standard for truth and facts. Genesis is a historical account of creation , the origins of life, man, the fall and results of sin on the world in which we live.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh yes 101G will, for Adam is MANKIND, and in christ Jesus there is neither MALE nor FEMALE. and as for the Name, Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;" Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." in Christ Jesus we all are the same .

101G

I'm in Jesus Christ right now and I'm most certainly a male. Females can't be circumcised.

You don't understand how to apply those words. No. Adam a representation of all of humanity. He was the first. Man has changed in so many ways since Adam.

You plan on living 900 plus years?

Adam is a proper name. I have my own proper name and God knows me BY NAME.......

This doesn't change the fact my identity is in Christ. It is not either or, it is BOTH. BOTH are true without any contradiction of fact.

 

[101G]

'm in Jesus Christ right now and I'm most certainly a male. Females can't be circumcised.

are females circumcised? yes, but not in the flesh, just as you and all males, in the HEART. my God P.Y. you should know this.

You don't understand how to apply those words. No. Adam a representation of all of humanity. He was the first. Man has changed in so many ways since Adam.

(smile), lol, NEXT. and yes, Adam was the FIRST MAN. and no, man after the fall have not change that much, all has cheated, lied and stole.

Adam is a proper name. I have my own proper name and God knows me BY NAME.......

Adam is "WHAT" he is and NOT.... "WHO" he is in Name.

You plan on living 900 plus years?

my Plan is not mine to excite. if God plan this then it his will.

This doesn't change the fact my identity is in Christ.

did 101G say it did?

101G

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

then there is no need to discuss it with you since we both have a different standard for truth and facts. Genesis is a historical account of creation , the origins of life, man, the fall and results of sin on the world in which we live.

If we discuss any topic is because we believe there is some potential benefit from the discussion for our readers and ourselves, and not necessarily to persuade the other person to change his view.

These are two areas in which I am particularly concerned:

• Teaching unscientific view of the world to our children
• Demanding a person to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis as a requisite to be forgiven by God and transformed into a new person

For example, @synergy has stated that the belief in biological death as a result from Adam's sin is FUNDAMENTAL for the atonement and resurrection of Christ. Since believing in the substitutionary atonement and resurrection of Christ is necessary for salvation in your view, then believing that biological death is the "wages of sin" Paul refers to would be necessary for salvation. Am I right?

Of course, many Christians, including pastors, theologians and the Pope, do not think that way.
They think they can profit from Christ atonement and resurrection without the need to believe that Genesis presents a historical account to be understood literally.

 

[praise_yeshua]

are females circumcised? yes, but not in the flesh, just as you and all males, in the HEART. my God P.Y. you should know this.

Circumcision is about the flesh. Yes. I know about the flesh. Adam wasn't circumcised in heart when God formed him out of the dust of the earth.

(smile), lol, NEXT. and yes, Adam was the FIRST MAN. and no, man after the fall have not change that much, all has cheated, lied and stole.

Adam is "WHAT" he is and NOT.... "WHO" he is in Name.

my Plan is not mine to excite. if God plan this then it his will.

did 101G say it did?

101G

Adam is not simply a "representation". If you want to discuss this in more detail we can.

 

[praise_yeshua]

then there is no need to discuss it with you since we both have a different standard for truth and facts. Genesis is a historical account of creation , the origins of life, man, the fall and results of sin on the world in which we live.

"Ain't" that the truth. He has no standard.

 

[101G]

Circumcision is about the flesh. Yes. I know about the flesh. Adam wasn't circumcised in heart when God formed him out of the dust of the earth.

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." so, was Adam heart Circumcise? yes or no. THINK BEFORE YOU ANSWER.

Adam is not simply a "representation". If you want to discuss this in more detail we can.

you can discuss anything you want.....

101G.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." so, was Adam heart Circumcise? yes or no. THINK BEFORE YOU ANSWER.

I always think before I answer. Do you?

you can discuss anything you want.....

101G.

Adam was never circumcised in flesh.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

so then the resurrection of a body that never decay have no effect in entropy is this correct? yes or no.

101G

For what we know, living organisms increase the total entropy, because they are not closed systems.
They are open systems, exchanging matter and energy with the environment.

Thinking in physically resurrected bodies with human shape or function lead us to the question of what human resurrected bodies really are... how they work and how they comply with laws of nature. Those speculations are irrelevant for our salvation, and that's why Paul didn't like them. From what Paul says, those bodies are not like the bodies we have now and that should be enough.

So, why insisting that the belief in the resurrection of physical bodies is essential for salvation?
What if I said that, after some years, resurrected bodies will grow tentacles or antennae or turn green? What if I said that female and male bodies become indistinguishable, deprived from any sexual traits? What if I said that bodies tend to merge into a big big mass of bodies intimately connected to each other, without legs or arms?
As you see, if there is no point in such speculations, there is no point in demanding from anyone to believe that resurrected bodies have a human shape or function of some kind.

 

[101G]

Adam was never circumcised in flesh.

101G asked was Adam Heart Circumcise? yes or no.

101G.

 

[101G]

For what we know, living organisms increase the total entropy, because they are not closed systems.
They are open systems, exchanging matter and energy with the environment.

Thinking in physically resurrected bodies with human shape or function lead us to the question of what human resurrected bodies really are... how they work and how they comply with laws of nature. Those speculations are irrelevant for our salvation, and that's why Paul didn't like them. From what Paul says, those bodies are not like the bodies we have now and that should be enough.

So, why insisting that the belief in the resurrection of physical bodies is essential for salvation?
What if I said that, after some years, resurrected bodies will grow tentacles or antennae or turn green? What if I said that female and male bodies become indistinguishable, deprived from any sexual traits? What if I said that bodies tend to merge into a big big mass of bodies intimately connected to each other, without legs or arms?
As you see, if there is no point in such speculations, there is no point in demanding from anyone to believe that resurrected bodies have a human shape or any kind of human biology.

That's not what 101G asked, but anyway, ....... Just only asked a question, so in GENERAL, any-body is effected by entropy correct? now scripture, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

so do entropy affects the Lord Jesus body even as we speak now? yes or no.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How could Adam's body or soul "live forever" unless they ate of the Tree of Life?

That's a very interesting perspective, my friend.
One that our friends @civic and @synergy should consider carefully, because it does not violate anything they believe.

Under that thesis, if I understand you right, God created the bodies of men just like the bodies of any other animal: mortal.
It was the access to the tree of life that kept them alive. Animals never had that access.

So, biological death is the wages of sin because we are prevented to have access to the tree of life.
In paradise, that tree of life will be accessible again, so our physical bodies will again be kept living forever (considering we will not reproduce anymore).

Although I take the reference to the tree of life metaphorically, that would be a beautiful and intelligent way to approach the subject.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's not what 101G asked, but anyway, ....... Just only asked a question, so in GENERAL, any-body is effected by entropy correct? now scripture, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

so do entropy affects the Lord Jesus body even as we speak now? yes or no.

101G.

I don't believe that Lord Jesus has a human biological body, so I don't think it is affected by entropy, as far as I can imagine.

 

[101G]

I don't believe that Lord Jesus has a human biological body, so I don't think it is affected by entropy, as far as I can imagine.

he said, "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." and he has a ..... "FLESH and BONE", body so, do entropy affects the Lord Jesus body.

101G.

 

[TedT]

Paul says that all Scripture is inspired by God, meaning there is no pagan mythology anywhere in Scripture. Do you believe Paul?

What is written is truth.
What is preached from a multitude of pulpits supposedly interpreting the truth is myth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear @civic and @synergy

You may consider the explanation offered in this thread about the loss of access to the tree of life as the cause of the biological decay and death of men. The biblical story says that God recognized that father their fall, Adam and Eve could still live forever if they continue to have access to the tree. Let's read:

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

Even when I don't think that the tree of life is a material literal tree, such interpretation would be much less at odds with science. It would be compatible with the fact that all animals and men have always been mortal, but that during some short time, God had given men a special gift to avoid disease, decay and death. You would still believe that biological death is the wages of sin, but as a result from separation from God, not as a result of a change made in their genes (or in the case of @civic, the genes of all living things).

 

[101G]

@Pancho Frijoles,
the point that 101G is making is this. Adam didn't have blood before the fall into sin. the blood is the LIFE of the flesh after the fall. so was entropy in effect before the fall. because man was given a temporary LIFE.... BLOOD.

101G.