Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[Dizerner]

So, do we both agree on the fact that Adam´s sin is not the cause of the death of trilobites?

Obviously you didn't even read my post on it, it's not that long man.

No, we do not agree on that, it's absurd, unbiblical and insulting to God.

It minimizes the punishment of sin and calls an evil thing good.

 

[Dizerner]

No, I don't.
"Something conceivable better" can only be conceived within the realm of reality. Otherwise it is a fantasy.

I agree it can't entail a logical contradiction, but a state free of corruption is obviously not a logical contradiction.

A false preacher could claim that "something conceivable better" is a world where all men choose always the good and have no chance to make a bad decision. But that is a fantasy, because in such situation "man" would not be "man". It is intrinsic to man the ability to make moral choices.
What that preacher is saying is that in the ideal world men would not exist. That would be an entirely different debate.

Well, this is moving the goal posts, but I'll try to work with it. We cannot argue that something is corrupt cannot any longer be corrupt because then it would no longer be the same something, or because we just decide to define it as impossible ("fantasy").

We are arguing a hypothetical possibility. You are limiting God's ability and power. Do you disagree that God has the power to make everyone born good looking and healthy, because then that would be 'fantasy" and "no longer reality"?

This kind of argument that "something cannot be anything else hypothetically because then it is no longer that something" is just an appeal to naturalism, a God who cannot have done anything differently, the God who literally created it to begin with.

It makes literally no sense. You're defining omnipotence as "fantasy," you may as well continue and define God as "fantasy" and creation as "fantasy" and anything different than you can currently physically observe "fantasy," it's literally special pleading

In conclusion, I am not violating logic. You are resorting to fantasies to keep hanging from the thread of your theological understanding.
That thread will break.
However, God has a nice safety net for you.

The suffering of Jesus for my sin is my safety net, and I need no assurance from a deceived and lost soul, so keep them to yourself if you please.

You call the attributes of God a "fantasy."

I find that preposterous and unbelieving.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree it can't entail a logical contradiction, but a state free of corruption is obviously not a logical contradiction.

You're right: a state free of corruption is not a logical contradiction.
When we talk about the "corruption" of the State, we use the word "corruption" to mean moral wickedness.
Now, in a material sense, "corruption" is not even a term used in science!
Cells are not "corrupted". Corpses do not "corrupt". They change and get recycled.

So, what I think is happening to you in this debate, is that you are applying the moral sense of "corruption" to a different context: the context of natural physical processes.

I appreciate you do it because the Bible used the metaphor of a decomposing corpse to illustrate the concept of sin or evil.
"Death" is also used to illustrate a situation of unawareness of God's love or unawareness of our own situation.
But theses are all metaphors, my friend.

Jesus uses the planet Venus to represent Himself (Rev 22:16). Has Venus something spiritually good or holy versus, say, Mars?
The Bible uses continually the figures of sheep and wolves. Are sheep "better" than wolves, so that sheep can be used to represent a good thing, and wolves a bad thing? No! The metaphor just uses some characteristics that can be useful to illustrate a point.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The suffering of Jesus for my sin is my safety net, and I need no assurance from a deceived and lost soul, so keep them to yourself if you please.

I assure you that something good is awaiting you.
You assure me that something bad is awaiting me.

I assure you that the thing you're about to detach from is a theological understanding, and there is nothing to fear.
You assure me that the thing I'm about to detach from is God, and there is a lot to fear.

That's the difference between your assurances and my assurances.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Obviously you didn't even read my post on it, it's not that long man.

You're right.
I'm sorry, my friend.
I should have read it carefully and entirely. Now I have read it.
You make a very interesting approach to the matter, that I had never heard before.
I will digest your proposal over the weekend.

 

[Jim]

Very astute understanding Jim. Adam wasn't created immortal. At the time of his sin, he had not eaten of the tree of life, therefore, like all of God's creation, he had a natural beginning and a natural end, creating the necessity to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth".

It doesn't say that the tree of life would make Adam immortal, just that it would let him live forever. There is a difference between being immortal and being able to eat some that would keep him alive forever. Being immortal is a condition of being, being kept from dying is a preventative. I believe the tree of life was a preventative.

Religious superstition and tradition of man, causes all the ever-changing philosophies around this story. But you are right, there is no mention in Scriptures at all, of God going out and "re-doing" His entire creation to change whales and tigers from herbivores to carnivores, because of Adam's Sin.

Precisely.

 

[Jim]

Scripture, although it distinguishes kinds of death, still puts death often in a more overarching and inclusive category.

The wages of sin is most certainty and most definitely, physical death.

The soul who sins shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 NKJ)

In both the OT and the NT the soul and the spirit are used nearly always used interchangeably when it is the human being in focus. The animals are said to be living creatures [Hebrew -- nephesh] (Gen 1:21, 24). When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, he became a living soul {Hebrew -- nephesh). Thus both animals and humans are living souls. The breath of life God breathed into Adam is usually taken to mean the spirit [Hebrew -- neshamah] of man. Thus to distinguish between the soul [nephesh] and the spirit [neshamah], I would suggest that man is a living being, a living creature, a soul who has a physical body and a spirit. The animals on the other hand are living beings, living creatures, souls who have physical bodies, but no spirits. That is the critical feature distinguishing man from animals. When speaking of humans, in both the OT and the NT, soul and spirit almost always mean the same thing.

In the spiritual sense, in standing before God, sin does not affect the body, even though the act of the sin can do so. That is why we read in passages such as Ephesians that we were dead "in trespasses and sins". We were not physically dead. Our standing before God was corrupted, depraved, spoiled. We were "spiritually" dead. The effect of sin, the wages of sin, is spiritual death.

So no, the wages of sin is not physical death. Physical death came to Adam and Eve because God ejected them from the Garden and they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which would have prevented them from dying.

Nothing would be "nasty" if nothing corrupted anything. You are not performing a true internal critique here, you are importing your old ideas.

Why do you think dying is "nasty"? It is the natural physical end to all biological life. For the child of God, dying is not something that is bad, rather it is the entrance into the most glorious life one could not even imagine, even if the actual manner of dying sometimes not so pleasant.

We were never meant to spend eternity on earth. We were and are meant to spend some finite time here on earth and then spend eternity in heaven. Sin really only did and does prevent spending eternity in heaven unless God somehow intervenes, thus redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Not in the sense it does today.

Of course, whatever was eaten died. It ceased to function biologically, it became just a mass of chemical substances, just like now.

There will be no decay or corruption in heaven, and this is why Eden is called a paradise, an idyllic state.

The bible doesn't call the Garden of Eden a paradise. You might, but the Bible doesn't. It wasn't paradise. Paradise is real and unaffected by whatever happens here on earth.

Death before the fall is insulting to God's character and reversing his economy.

Only from your point of view, certainly not from God's point of view. Even one we are born again, and reunited with God as living spiritual beings, having been forgiven of all our sins, sins which God will not count against us, we will die. So being freed from all accounting of our sins, still we will die. From Hebrews 9:27 we see that it is appointed that we die once.

 

[Jim]

There is decay or I liked to call it an expiration date in creation. We do have climate change. But it is not what you think is causing it. The Rabbis say the earth is aging just like our bodies are aging. Because of this the earth can not repell heat and cold like it once could before. One day there will be a new Heaven and Earth according to the book of Revelation. The Rabbis also stated unless you can change the number of hours in a day you will not solve of affect climate change.
Shalom

Physics didn't change because Adam sinned no matter what the Rabbis said or say.

 

[David Koberstein]

Physics didn't change because Adam sinned no matter what the Rabbis said or say.

Are you that ignorant? Physics did change after the fall. The whole creation was tainted and cursed by sin. Everything including YOU now has an expiration date. The Rabbis and the Sages have more credibility than you and your cult.
Shabbat Shalom

Physics didn't change because Adam sinned no matter what the Rabbis said or say.

 

[David Koberstein]

You're right: a state free of corruption is not a logical contradiction.
When we talk about the "corruption" of the State, we use the word "corruption" to mean moral wickedness.
Now, in a material sense, "corruption" is not even a term used in science!
Cells are not "corrupted". Corpses do not "corrupt". They change and get recycled.

So, what I think is happening to you in this debate, is that you are applying the moral sense of "corruption" to a different context: the context of natural physical processes.

I appreciate you do it because the Bible used the metaphor of a decomposing corpse to illustrate the concept of sin or evil.
"Death" is also used to illustrate a situation of unawareness of God's love or unawareness of our own situation.
But theses are all metaphors, my friend.

Jesus uses the planet Venus to represent Himself (Rev 22:16). Has Venus something spiritually good or holy versus, say, Mars?
The Bible uses continually the figures of sheep and wolves. Are sheep "better" than wolves, so that sheep can be used to represent a good thing, and wolves a bad thing? No! The metaphor just uses some characteristics that can be useful to illustrate a point.

Do you have brain damage? What cult do you belong to?
Shabbat Shalom

 

[civic]

That a lion eats straw is NOT the ideal situation... unless we want lions to disappear.
God created lions to be lions and oxen to be oxen.
The ideal situation, at least for the time in which their existence as species is planned, is to remain what they are, and glorify God in being what they are.


I don't know. Not all details in an analogy are metaphors on their own.
But if you ask me to speculate, probably production.
Societies have basically two kinds of people: Those who produce, and those who exploit the producers.
So the carnivores would be the symbol of those who exploit the producers. Mainly, governments, drug cartels, the mafia, etc
This is just my take. Who knows!



I'm not missing the point: the good thing that the verse is pointing to is PEACE.
Not biological absurdities.
The ideal state is that of peace. Not the state in which the lion is no longer a lion.

This is literal and will happen in His future kingdom just like it was before sin.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young ones shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 

[Jim]

Are you that ignorant? Physics did change after the fall. The whole creation was tainted and cursed by sin. Everything including YOU now has an expiration date. The Rabbis and the Sages have more credibility than you and your cult.
Shabbat Shalom

When all else fails, just label the opposition ignorant. Of course, it is almost never the opposition that actually displays the ignorance.,

I am curious, who do the Rabbis say made the change in the Physics? What changes specifically took place? Were then no chemical processes before the fall? Were there no nuclear processes before the fall? Were there no energy transfers before the fall. Please tell us what changes the Rabbis say actually took place.

 

[Jim]

This is literal and will happen in His future kingdom just like it was before sin.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young ones shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Do you really believe that is a literal description? In that future kingdom that you see, what keeps the fall from happening all over again just as it did the first time? Why wasn't it that way the first time? Why go through all that just to be able to send most to eternal condemnation?

 

[Jim]

Do you have brain damage? What cult do you belong to?
Shabbat Shalom

I think you need to tone down your derogatory comments. It only tells us who and what you are.

 

[civic]

Do you really believe that is a literal description? In that future kingdom that you see, what keeps the fall from happening all over again just as it did the first time? Why wasn't it that way the first time? Why go through all that just to be able to send most to eternal condemnation?

Yes there will be a time in the future where there will be peace. There will be no fall again in the Resurrection we will be like Him as John says and sin, satan and his demons and followers will be in hell will be throne in the lake of fire for ever. All former things will be done away with as the Apostles taught.

see below:

In the utopian environment of the Messiah’s future realm, all dangers of the animal kingdom will cease. Isaiah couples each animal with its natural prey. The lamb will be safe from the threat of the wolf, the goat will be unharmed by the leopard, and the fatted calf will not fear the menace of the lion. Under the perfect dominion of the Prince of Peace, the state of the world will be so tame that even the most ferocious wild beasts will submit to the leading of a little child.

Human superiority over animals will continue in Messiah’s millennial kingdom but be amplified. Even small children—who would ordinarily be preyed upon by wild beasts—will not only be safe from these predatory creatures but will have control over them. This serene relationship between predator and prey is used often in prophetic Scripture to portray the state of life under the Prince of Peace: “‘The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,’ says the LORD” (Isaiah 65:25).

Ezekiel describes the harmony and safety of a restored creation in similar terms: “I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety” (Ezekiel 34:25; see also Hosea 2:18). The apostle Paul seems to echo this future expectation: “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time” (Romans 8:19–22). In the restored kingdom, all creation will be at peace because the curse will be lifted.

When Isaiah said, “A little child shall lead them,” he meant that even a small boy or girl would be safe to lead former predators and prey together as if they were domesticated animals, like a dog on a leash or horse on a lead. Under Messiah’s restored kingdom, peace and security will reign over all creation, even in the wild animal kingdom, and nothing will be able to disturb or threaten that tranquility.got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

Yes there will be a time in the future where there will be peace. There will be no fall again in the Resurrection we will be like Him as John says and sin, satan and his demons and followers will be in hell will be throne in the lake of fire for ever. All former things will be done away with as the Apostles taught.

see below:

In the utopian environment of the Messiah’s future realm, all dangers of the animal kingdom will cease. Isaiah couples each animal with its natural prey. The lamb will be safe from the threat of the wolf, the goat will be unharmed by the leopard, and the fatted calf will not fear the menace of the lion. Under the perfect dominion of the Prince of Peace, the state of the world will be so tame that even the most ferocious wild beasts will submit to the leading of a little child.

Human superiority over animals will continue in Messiah’s millennial kingdom but be amplified. Even small children—who would ordinarily be preyed upon by wild beasts—will not only be safe from these predatory creatures but will have control over them. This serene relationship between predator and prey is used often in prophetic Scripture to portray the state of life under the Prince of Peace: “‘The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,’ says the LORD” (Isaiah 65:25).

Ezekiel describes the harmony and safety of a restored creation in similar terms: “I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety” (Ezekiel 34:25; see also Hosea 2:18). The apostle Paul seems to echo this future expectation: “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time” (Romans 8:19–22). In the restored kingdom, all creation will be at peace because the curse will be lifted.

When Isaiah said, “A little child shall lead them,” he meant that even a small boy or girl would be safe to lead former predators and prey together as if they were domesticated animals, like a dog on a leash or horse on a lead. Under Messiah’s restored kingdom, peace and security will reign over all creation, even in the wild animal kingdom, and nothing will be able to disturb or threaten that tranquility.got?

hope this helps !!!

It doesn't.

Could you describe for me what it sounds like when the whole creation groans?

 

[civic]

It doesn't.

Could you describe for me what it sounds like when the whole creation groans?

that is in the present but in the future it will cease.

 

[Jim]

that is in the present but in the future it will cease.

??????

 

[civic]

??????

we groan like creation is our present fallen world but there is a future where it will no longer exist. I guess you do not believe in the new heavens and the new earth

 

[Jim]

we groan like creation is our present fallen world but there is a future where it will no longer exist. I guess you do not believe in the new heavens and the new earth

Yeah I believe in the new heaves and the new earth. But I don't believe in your description of it.