Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[synergy]

Yeah, his Christology was even worse!

I agree.

But are you a Catholic that deems the Fathers to be as perfect as the bible or are you a Protestant who follows the Spirit?

Neither. I'm best described as Apostolic. Not in the Pentecostal sense but in the Traditional Historical sense. I believe in everything the Apostles bequeathed to us, such as the Bible and Church Traditions such as what you see in the Roman Catacombs. For example, the real presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper (Eucharist), images, and full immersion baptism.

Perhaps we should say, one of the first theologians to believe and the promote pre-existence of souls, eh? Also, since nothing can pre-exist its existence, the use of preexistence for a life previous to our earthly life or to a pre-conception existence is moot.

As for souls, not spirits, I consider these to be much the same thing except a soul is (probably) a spirit held in a body ...

 

[Behold]

ImCo,
this should be interpreted as because of THEIR own sin without reference to Adam and Eve.

If there were no Adam and Eve then there would be no sin in the world, as "by one man's sin" sin entered the world and caused the fall of us all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If there were no Adam and Eve then there would be no sin in the world, as "by one man's sin" sin entered the world and caused the fall of us all.

You reference Adam yet include Eve.....

Why?

 

[Behold]

You reference Adam yet include Eve.....

Why?

And Adam was not deceived; but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression.
ASV
and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
AMP
and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.
AMPC
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.
BRG
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
CSB
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
CEB
Adam wasn’t deceived, but rather his wife became the one who stepped over the line because she was completely deceived.
CJB
Also it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who, on being deceived, became involved in the transgression.
CEV
and the man Adam wasn't the one who was fooled. It was the woman Eve who was completely fooled and sinned.
DARBY
and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression.
DLNT
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been completely-deceived, has come-to-be in transgression.
DRA
And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.
ERV
Also, Adam was not the one who was tricked. It was the woman who was tricked and became a sinner.
EASY
It was Eve, not Adam, who believed the lies that Satan told her. Because she believed Satan completely, she did what God had said was wrong.
EHV
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but it was the woman who was deceived and became a transgressor.
ESV
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
ESVUK
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
EXB
And Adam was not ·tricked [deceived; led astray], but the woman was ·tricked [deceived; led astray] and became a ·sinner [transgressor; Gen. 3:1–6].
GNV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in the transgression.
GW

 

[praise_yeshua]

And Adam was not deceived; but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression.
ASV
and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
AMP
and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.
AMPC
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression.
BRG
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
CSB
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
CEB
Adam wasn’t deceived, but rather his wife became the one who stepped over the line because she was completely deceived.
CJB
Also it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who, on being deceived, became involved in the transgression.
CEV
and the man Adam wasn't the one who was fooled. It was the woman Eve who was completely fooled and sinned.
DARBY
and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression.
DLNT
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been completely-deceived, has come-to-be in transgression.
DRA
And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression.
ERV
Also, Adam was not the one who was tricked. It was the woman who was tricked and became a sinner.
EASY
It was Eve, not Adam, who believed the lies that Satan told her. Because she believed Satan completely, she did what God had said was wrong.
EHV
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but it was the woman who was deceived and became a transgressor.
ESV
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
ESVUK
and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
EXB
And Adam was not ·tricked [deceived; led astray], but the woman was ·tricked [deceived; led astray] and became a ·sinner [transgressor; Gen. 3:1–6].
GNV
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived, and was in the transgression.
GW

One reference would have sufficed.

You didn't explain why you included Eve yet referenced Adam.

Did Eve sin first?

 

[TedT]

If there were no Adam and Eve then there would be no sin in the world, as "by one man's sin" sin entered the world and caused the fall of us all.

What the verse actually says is by one man's sin entered the world and death came to all because all sinned themselves... It does not say his sin came to all.

Berean Literal Bible
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.

 

[David Koberstein]

Dear readers

In this thread I intend to defend the thesis that our physical bodies decay and die not because the sin of Adam and Eve, but because it is part of a natural process created by God.
In this process, the components of our bodies serve to bring life to other living organisms.
Biological death, just as metabolism or reproduction, is inherent to biological life. It does not imply destruction of matter or energy, but rearrangement, reuse, within the big picture of life in the planet.

In this thread, I will defend that

1. Genesis account on the fall should be understood spiritually, symbolically, and not as a scientific explanation of why humans (or other species) die.
2. Paul's reference to Adam and Christ as persons who introduced death and life (correspondingly) should also be understood spiritually, as salvation is about passing from spiritual death to the life of the spirit, and not about the eternal preservation of our bones or kidneys.
3. We should face the death of our bodies with peace, joy and gratitude to God, who gave it to us as a temporary gift.

I think you are severly misinformed and misguided on Scripture. I don't think anybody is buying the snake oil you are selling.
Shalom

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think you are severly misinformed and misguided on Scripture. I don't think anybody is buying the snake oil you are selling.
Shalom

Welcome to the thread.
Id like to read your arguments.

 

[Jim]

Death is a result of sin, Adams sin effected the entire creation

That is a common view of things; but it really doesn't make any sense. How did Adam's sin affect the entire creation? What was the mechanism for such a universal happening? What did Adam actually do that would have changed the fundamental makeup of the physical nature of not only human beings as created, but the whole rest of the physical universe? If any such effect took place it could only have happened by the power of God, and only God. No such description is given in the Bible.

What God says in Genesis is that when Adam sinned, Adam became dead in his sin the very day that he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The warning that God gave to Adam was exactly what came about. He died spiritually in that very day. He did not die physically for hundreds of years later and that because he no longer could take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

 

[Dizerner]

In Genesis 1 and 2 we see everything is made very good.

In Genesis 3, we see suffering, decay and death directly attributed to rebellion against God.

We see Romans confirms this, telling us all creation was subjected to futility because of one person.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope (Rom. 8:20 NKJ)

We see death is specifically associated as the judgment on sin.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:23 NKJ)

And we see the entrance of death and sin accredited to one man, Adam:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom. 5:12 NKJ)

If we put death, decay and corruption before the Fall of Adam, we assert that God thinks they are very good.

This is an insult to God's character, when these things are specifically described as judgment on sin.

 

[Dizerner]

See my thread here:

Thread 'Death, suffering and violence BEFORE the fall is GOOD?!!'

Sep 2, 2023

It is rather shocking to me that I meet the claim from several corners, that before Adam and Eve transgressed, death and suffering were a vital part of the ecosystem and considered "very good." People seem to posit this when they struggle to harmonize the fall in their reasoning, seeing that many very ancient animals ate each other and were diseased, and seeing that the fabric of physical laws seems to demand there be imperfections in biological function and competitive destructive behavior.

A book I have read on this, Death Before the Fall, espouses this very view, and a...

• Dizerner
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Doctrine

 

[Jim]

In Genesis 1 and 2 we see everything is made very good.

In Genesis 3, we see suffering, decay and death directly attributed to rebellion against God.

We see Romans confirms this, telling us all creation was subjected to futility because of one person.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope (Rom. 8:20 NKJ)

We see death is specifically associated as the judgment on sin.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6:23 NKJ)

And we see the entrance of death and sin accredited to one man, Adam:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom. 5:12 NKJ)

If we put death, decay and corruption before the Fall of Adam, we assert that God thinks they are very good.

This is an insult to God's character, when these things are specifically described as judgment on sin.

The wages of sin is not physical death!!!

If there was no death or decay in the creation, can you imagine how many mosquitoes, flies, rats, mice and other such nasties would be around today? There would be no place for us.

Do you really think the fruits, vegetables etc., that Adam and Eve and whatever the rest of the animals were eating did not die? Decay is simply the natural physical chemical reactions created at the very outset. The formation of water from hydrogen and oxygen is an oxidation reaction, similar to all such “decay” functions in nature. That obviously is “good’, and in fact, is very good.

 

[Studyman]

That is a common view of things; but it really doesn't make any sense. How did Adam's sin affect the entire creation? What was the mechanism for such a universal happening? What did Adam actually do that would have changed the fundamental makeup of the physical nature of not only human beings as created, but the whole rest of the physical universe? If any such effect took place it could only have happened by the power of God, and only God. No such description is given in the Bible.

What God says in Genesis is that when Adam sinned, Adam became dead in his sin the very day that he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The warning that God gave to Adam was exactly what came about. He died spiritually in that very day. He did not die physically for hundreds of years later and that because he no longer could take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

Very astute understanding Jim. Adam wasn't created immortal. At the time of his sin, he had not eaten of the tree of life, therefore, like all of God's creation, he had a natural beginning and a natural end, creating the necessity to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth".

Religious superstition and tradition of man, causes all the ever-changing philosophies around this story. But you are right, there is no mention in Scriptures at all, of God going out and "re-doing" His entire creation to change whales and tigers from herbivores to carnivores, because of Adam's Sin.

 

[David Koberstein]

The wages of sin is not physical death!!!

If there was no death or decay in the creation, can you imagine how many mosquitoes, flies, rats, mice and other such nasties would be around today? There would be no place for us.

Do you really think the fruits, vegetables etc., that Adam and Eve and whatever the rest of the animals were eating did not die? Decay is simply the natural physical chemical reactions created at the very outset. The formation of water from hydrogen and oxygen is an oxidation reaction, similar to all such “decay” functions in nature. That obviously is “good’, and in fact, is very good.

Gen 2:7 When God "breathes" into the body he has made for Adam, He is placing a soul into man, something that was not done with the
animals in v.19.
Gen 2:14 Why do verses 10-14 about the four rivers interrupt the flow of the narrative? There is an ancient midrash/story that says that
when Adam was cast out of the garden he couldn't get back in but...the waters of the river flowed out of Eden. According to the story
Adam would immerse himself in the flow of the waters in repentance as he tried to recapture a tiny bit of Eden.
Gen 2:15 teaches that man has a purpose, we are to work the garden. We don't sit around with harps. Also we are to keep/guard the garden.
The Hebrew word is shamar which means guard. From what is Adam supposed to guard the garden?
Gen 2:23 Did Adam die the day he eat from the tree? Gen 5:5 says that Adam lived 930 years, but..2 Pet. 3:8 teaches that 1000 years are as a
day to the Lord, so in a sense Adam did die in that "day." However this is not the best understanding. This is the first time death is used
in the Bible. What happened when Adam and Eve disobeyed? They were cast out of God's presence. They physically lived on but were not
able to be with God anymore until the LORD send a redeemer. Biblically death is separation from God. Biblical Life is being reunited with
the LORD. (Jn 17:3.) This is why Yeshua and Paul keep calling what we think of as death, sleep. (Lazarus John 11:38-44 and the 2nd
coming 1 Thess 4:13) Everyone 'wakes-up' from death for a judgement. Only those born of the Spirit are saved from that judgement. and
the consequences of our sins. John 3.
Gen 3:7 If you dig deeply enough, the word in Hebrew for fig leaves has the same root as the word for excuses. Adam and Eve covered themselves with excuses.
Gen 3:15 Seed, זרע zerah, is singular, This often seen as a foreshadowing of her descendant, Messiah Yeshua.
Gen 3:20 Skin in this verse is singular, meaning God sacrificed one life to cover all mankind. The word for atonement in Hebrew, Kappur כפרה,
means covering. In this verse, God is covering/atoning all mankinds nakedness with one sacrifice, a picture of Messiah's ministry to come.
Shalom
Messianic Torah with Commentary

 

[Dizerner]

The wages of sin is not physical death!!!

Scripture, although it distinguishes kinds of death, still puts death often in a more overarching and inclusive category.

The wages of sin is most certainty and most definitely, physical death.

The soul who sins shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 NKJ)

If there was no death or decay in the creation, can you imagine how many mosquitoes, flies, rats, mice and other such nasties would be around today? There would be no place for us.

Nothing would be "nasty" if nothing corrupted anything. You are not performing a true internal critique here, you are importing your old ideas.

Do you really think the fruits, vegetables etc., that Adam and Eve and whatever the rest of the animals were eating did not die?

Not in the sense it does today.

There will be no decay or corruption in heaven, and this is why Eden is called a paradise, an idyllic state.

Death before the fall is insulting to God's character and reversing his economy.

 

[Dizerner]

Religious superstition and tradition of man, causes all the ever-changing philosophies around this story. But you are right, there is no mention in Scriptures at all, of God going out and "re-doing" His entire creation to change whales and tigers from herbivores to carnivores, because of Adam's Sin.

And yet lions and wolves and adders will lie down with lambs and children against their nature in the heavenly state.

If all that was very good, there would be no reason to change it.

This is a terrible attack on God's character to accuse him of creating such corruption and violence and perversion.

 

[David Koberstein]

The wages of sin is not physical death!!!

If there was no death or decay in the creation, can you imagine how many mosquitoes, flies, rats, mice and other such nasties would be around today? There would be no place for us.

Do you really think the fruits, vegetables etc., that Adam and Eve and whatever the rest of the animals were eating did not die? Decay is simply the natural physical chemical reactions created at the very outset. The formation of water from hydrogen and oxygen is an oxidation reaction, similar to all such “decay” functions in nature. That obviously is “good’, and in fact, is very good.

There is decay or I liked to call it an expiration date in creation. We do have climate change. But it is not what you think is causing it. The Rabbis say the earth is aging just like our bodies are aging. Because of this the earth can not repell heat and cold like it once could before. One day there will be a new Heaven and Earth according to the book of Revelation. The Rabbis also stated unless you can change the number of hours in a day you will not solve of affect climate change.
Shalom

 

[TedT]

Death before the fall is insulting to God's character and reversing his economy.

This....!

And: the death of anyone without personal sin is just as insulting.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And we see the entrance of death and sin accredited to one man, Adam:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom. 5:12 NKJ)

Even if we took the verse literally, Paul would say that you die because you sinned, not because Adam sinned ("because all sinned").
But we don't have to take the verse literally:
The epistle of Romans spins around a central concept: Converts from Jew and Greek background should not despise each other, because both are sinners, and both need the gospel of Jesus. The concept is repeatedly presented over and over through the epistle. I can present all the quotes needed if somebody is interested.

With this concept in mind, Paul is telling Jews and Greeks that they shouldn't quarrel and consider his group superior to the other, because both of them descend from Adam as common Ancestor, and both of them have Christ as common Lord. In Adam, both are separated from God. In Jesus, both are reconciled with God. In Adam, both are dead. In Jesus, both are alive. In Adam, therefore, there is no "Jew" vs "Greek" distinction... and in Jesus there shouldn't be any distinction.

If we put death, decay and corruption before the Fall of Adam, we assert that God thinks they are very good.

I am convinced that God reveals his character and purpose also through nature, and that He has endowed men with reason to extract his message in nature, just as He has given you a gift to read and analyze Scriptures.
The best way to study God's character in nature is through science.

1. Science shows us that billions or trillions of living creatures died before the appearance of men.
2. Science also show us that the natural cycles that keep us alive (along with all other creatures) are fed by the recycling of the components of other living things. We wouldn't be here, in this moment, if other creatures wouldn't have died.
3. Science also show us that the mechanisms for cell death are programmed in the DNA of living cells. So, it is asburd to think that God designed our DNA to eat and reproduce, but not to die.

Therefore, biological death is GOOD. This includes YOUR biological death and MY biological death.
We better thank God for the body He has generously lent us for a while, as a vehicle to glorify Him.
When the time comes, I will thankfully give back to God what always belonged to Him, so that other bodies can be built.

This is an insult to God's character,

It would be an insult to God's character if biological death were bad. But it is not. It is good.
On the contrary, I say that it is an insult to God's character to reject his revelation through science and give the Bible a use for which it was not inspired.

Rejecting reason is equivalent to rejecting Scripture, as both are vehicles of The Word.

when these things are specifically described as judgment on sin.

Paul was interested in the spiritual death and eternal life. This should not come to a surprise, since Jesus, His Master, was interested in spiritual death vs eternal life.
Neither Jesus nor Paul were interested in describing the physical realities of biology. If Jesus had been interested in teaching science, He would have given his disciples specific instructions on how to deal with malaria, the plague or typhus... how to develop anesthesia, surgical procedures and antibiotics. But Jesus did not teach that. He came for our souls.
So, I encourage everyone to be careful every time we read "dead" or "death", "alive" or "life".
We have strong scriptural evidence on how these terms should be understood.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There will be no decay or corruption in heaven, and this is why Eden is called a paradise, an idyllic state.

"Decay" and "corruption" are words that have been for centuries symbol of an undesired state... and therefore associated with evil. That's why the inspired authors use them that way... But they are not evil!

The truth is that between 50-70 billion cells die in our body EVERY DAY. This "decay" or "corruption" of our cells is highly desirable. It is a good think that allow us to be ALIVE. Well,, in the same sense, the "decay" and "corruption" of billions of living animals and plants allow other billions of animals and plants to LIVE.