Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[brightfame52]

2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word for destroyed is the word phthora and means:

1. corruption, destruction, perishing
   1. that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
   2. in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
2. in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay
   
   So it doesnt in any sense mean or suggest annihilation.
   
   Theres another scripture that speaks of it as eternal destruction 2 Thess 1:9
   
   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 11

 

[armylngst]

No they werent. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation to be holy and without blame in Love Eph 1:4 Paul said it like this also Rom 9:23

: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

afore prepared, thats election

Ephesians 2
"And [a]you were dead [c]in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the [d]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the [e]sons of disobedience. 3 Among them [f]we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, [g]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [h]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest."
Seems pretty clear to me. Again, temporal. WERE by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. In other words, we WERE no different then them.

" 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together [j]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the [k]boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

I never said there is no election, I said you aren't looking at it right.

 

[armylngst]

You still aint understanding, God created some for hell, to be punished for their sins.

Just based on what you just said, you don't understand. It is A LOT more complicated then that.

 

[brightfame52]

Ephesians 2
"And [a]you were dead [c]in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the [d]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the [e]sons of disobedience. 3 Among them [f]we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, [g]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [h]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest."

Okay that doesnt change nothing, thats written to the elect vessels of mercy,. That has nothing to do with the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction

 

[Doug Brents]

lol for that matter Rom 1:1-Rom 16 are the same letter of discussion

Very true. And that admission removes your argument that chapters 8 and 9 are about different groups of people. Care to try again?

 

[Doug Brents]

False, the elect were the vessels of mercy entering into the world, accepted in Christ, but the the non elect goats entered into the world reprobated and hated by God.

Anyone who is a sinner is cut off from God, and dead spiritually. The "elect" are saved from being spiritually dead, resurrected from spiritual death. They were not born elect (even though God knew who would be resurrected before He created the World).

Rom 9 shows the two different groups of people made from the same lump of sinful humanity. One group of sinners were made for glory and honor as vessels of mercy, and the other group of sinners were made for wrath and dishonor and shame

And what is the dividing line between the two? How are they separated? Through their actions and choices (Matt 25:34-46, Rom 8:29, Rom 10:9-10, and many others).

 

[brightfame52]

Very true. And that admission removes your argument that chapters 8 and 9 are about different groups of people. Care to try again?

Doesnt change the fact . It debunks what you saying. In Chapter 9 we find that pharaoh is an Illustration of them who God created for the sole purpose of destroying him. His Life served the purpose of reprobation, and so it is with all the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction

 

[Doug Brents]

Doesnt change the fact . It debunks what you saying. In Chapter 9 we find that pharaoh is an Illustration of them who God created for the sole purpose of destroying him. His Life served the purpose of reprobation, and so it is with all the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction

Again, that is your interpretation of what God said, but that interpretation does not fit with the rest of what Scripture says. You want to think that you have no choice in what happens? Have fun with that. But Scripture tells us that we do have a choice, and we do have culpability in our decisions and actions. What we do, and what we choose, has consequences. And anyone, absolutely anyone, can choose to obey God and be saved. That is what "whosoever", and the other similar words that Scripture uses, means.

 

[brightfame52]

Anyone who is a sinner is cut off from God, and dead spiritually.

Yeah, but sinners with different purposes and destinies. The elects sinnership is for the demonstration of Gods mercy and grace and love to them preparing them for glory, the non elects sinnership is for the demonstration of Gods righteous indignation and justice in condemning them to hell

 

[brightfame52]

Again, that is your interpretation of what God said,

Correct

 

[Doug Brents]

Yeah, but sinners with different purposes and destinies. The elects sinnership is for the demonstration of Gods mercy and grace and love to them preparing them for glory, the non elects sinnership is for the demonstration of Gods righteous indignation and justice in condemning them to hell

The "elect" were not born elect (even though God knew who would be resurrected before He created the World). All sinners are condemned. Those who hear God's Gospel of salvation and accept it will be saved and given eternal life with God in Heaven. All who either don't hear the Gospel or spurn the message in it will not be resurrected and will spend eternity in Hell separated from Life. It is based upon our choice, through the power of Jesus' sacrifice, that we are made elect (for it was by God's foreknowledge that He chose to predestine those who chose Jesus to salvation).

 

[Doug Brents]

Correct

And your personal interpretation is WRONG! (according to Scripture)

 

[brightfame52]

The "elect" were not born elect

False, thats like saying they weren't born lost sheep

 

[brightfame52]

And your personal interpretation is WRONG! (according to Scripture)

I dont believe that, Im understanding what God said

 

[Doug Brents]

False, thats like saying they weren't born lost sheep

No one is born lost. We are born in the same condition Adam was in before the Fall (I believe). This is why Jesus calls children pure, and that the Kingdom of God belongs to such as they. We are condemned when we sin. And then salvation from the death sin engenders is available to anyone who submits to God in faith and accepts Jesus as savior.

I dont believe that, Im understanding what God said

Misunderstanding, because what you believe contradicts many passages of Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

No one is born lost.

Yes they are, spiritually lost and ruined, dead in sin and trespasses

 

[armylngst]

Okay that doesnt change nothing, thats written to the elect vessels of mercy,. That has nothing to do with the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction

Nice dodge.