Covenants

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Covenants are "the promises" of God.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

ἐπαγγελία

διαθήκη (Covenants) are simply GOD'S promises. Men make covenants they break. God can not lie. What He has promise..... HE ALONE will perform.

Just because Genesis 3:15 doesn't use the word διαθήκη or בְּרִית doesn't change the fact that it is part of God's promises.

Racist, misogynistic people like only care about themselves. They can't imagine God promising a women that her offspring will defeat Satan. They can't imagine God being so different than themselves.
 
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Covenants are "the promises" of God.
Hmmmm.... I do not think that is correct. Covenants contain promises. Promises are not identical to or synonymous with covenants.....
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

ἐπαγγελία

διαθήκη (Covenants) are simply GOD'S promises. Men make covenants they break. God can not lie. What He has promise..... HE ALONE will perform.

Just because Genesis 3:15 doesn't use the word διαθήκη or בְּרִית doesn't change the fact that it is part of God's promises.
.....which the above would seem to demonstrate.
If the window to edit the post is still open, then I exhort you to delete those comments because they violate the tou and ad hominem never helps a case.
 
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Covenants are "the promises" of God.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

ἐπαγγελία

διαθήκη (Covenants) are simply GOD'S promises. Men make covenants they break. God can not lie. What He has promise..... HE ALONE will perform.

Just because Genesis 3:15 doesn't use the word διαθήκη or בְּרִית doesn't change the fact that it is part of God's promises.

Racist, misogynistic people like only care about themselves. They can't imagine God promising a women that her offspring will defeat Satan. They can't imagine God being so different than themselves.
You add to the bible things not there. There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three HEBREW COVENANTS, and your interpretation there's a covenant in Genesis 3:15 is a lie.
But I accept such contradictions against God coming from unbelievers.
 
Hmmmm.... I do not think that is correct. Covenants contain promises. Promises are not identical to or synonymous with covenants.....

.....which the above would seem to demonstrate.
If the window to edit the post is still open, then I exhort you to delete those comments because they violate the tou and ad hominem never helps a case.

Paul referenced a "covenant" as promises. I believe what Paul wrote. There are many promises that God has given to human. Some people only want to talk about those they "think" apply to them.

I started to openly discuss the chargers against me a couple of weeks ago of using "ad hominem" arguments. I believe I do that now. Depending how the @Administrator react to this, I'll stick around or not. I'll invite you to that discussion.
 
My response is I hope you stick around as you are one of our top members for thought provoking Input.

What I do here is try to keep the peace. Am I perfect at that? No. Do I make mistakes? Yes.

If everyone just followed the rules there would be no problem. Everyone here Is entitled to their own beliefs and Theology. We all realize that not everyone is going to agree with us.


That doesn't give us an excuse not to be loving, kind and polite.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Romans 14:10-12​

 
My response is I hope you stick around as you are one of our top members for thought provoking Input.

What I do here is try to keep the peace. Am I perfect at that? No. Do I make mistakes? Yes.

If everyone just followed the rules there would be no problem. Everyone here Is entitled to their own beliefs and Theology. We all realize that not everyone is going to agree with us.


That doesn't give us an excuse not to be loving, kind and polite.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Romans 14:10-12​


There is context to Romans 14. That context was the circumstances at Rome among believers attacking one another over eating things offered to idols. Paul clearly established the very fact that a believer is not condemned over such actions. He took a specific "side' in the argument and then appealed to the "weaker brothers" to realize this. He then appealed to stronger brothers in faith who were eating things sacrificed to idols to not condemn their weaker brothers. There is no scenario wherein we can avoid taking sides. Someone is right and someone is wrong. Those that openly and repeatedly resist the truth, should be "called out" and embarrassed. Even elders/leaders were to be rebuked by Timothy.

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I'm not claiming authority of any sort. I have none. All I expect anyone to do is to take everything I say in context of any conversation as an progressively escalating argument. This particular user has been more than enough space to make his argument. We've argued over this topic for a very long time now. It is very clear to anyone with any sense of biblical reason to recognize what he is doing. I simply said was needed to be said. I'm done with him. I leave him to God. You will not find me endlessly repeating myself.

I've certainly made enemies here. When they can't attack position with logic and reason, realize they are the one's attacking me. I will put him on ignore.
 
Prove it.
I quoted a verse in the OP. I'll add.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Everything is the total of it's parts. He is our peace. Christ is our covenant.

Also, covenants are established upon promises.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The very concept of "covenant" theology is horribly flawed. I know this is contrary to your own position. Your position requires that you have promises that others do not have. The same is true of many theologies that claim to have something others do not have.

God promised Eve that her seed would triumphant over the one that deceived her.

Prove it.

Reread my OP and then reread this post. I can elaborate but it would be nice if you join this conversation beyond "prove it" distractions.
 
I quoted a verse in the OP. I'll add.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
The verse does not conflate promises with covenants. The op does.
Everything is the total of it's parts. He is our peace. Christ is our covenant.
Not always. On many occasions the whole is much greater than the sum of its part. That comment is incorrect, and it is being asserted as a red herring in a question-begging manner. Prove covenants are the total of their parts and not something more.
Also, covenants are established upon promises.
Which is what I said. Covenants contain promises. Promises are not identical to or synonymous with covenants. Promises are a constituent component of covenants, not its whole. A common exegetical error is the construction fallacy in which what is true of the parts is thought to be true of the whole, or disparate terms are conflated. It's bad exegsis.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The very concept of "covenant" theology is horribly flawed.
Irrelevant. No one here is saying anything about Covenant Theology. That protest is an attempt at onus-shifting red herring when what should be happening is you proving "Covenants are 'the promises' of God." when an accurate understanding is that covenants include promises as a constituent element.

Try reading exactly what is posted and not imposing irrelevant prejudices and imagination on my posts.


Covenants contain promises. Covenants are not identical to or synonymous with promises. What is true of the parts is not necessarily true of the whole, or the other parts. This has absolutely nothing to do with Covenant Theology, and the verses employed so far do not actually teach covenants and promises are identical, synonymous, or two things that can be conflated. If that were the case, then verses like Hebrews 8:6 would be unnecessarily redundant (and nonsensical).

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

If that were read through the opening assertion of this op, then the better covenant is enacted on better covenants, the better promises are enacted on better promises, the better promises are enacted on better covenants.

None of that is what whole scripture teaches, and the onus is not on me to prove that fact. The onus is on you to prove this op's asserting in light of these facts and to do so in a manner that avoids inconsistency and contradiction.

Galatians 3:17
What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

An invalidated covenant nullifies the promises made therein. That does not mean a nullified promise would invalidate an entire covenant. It could, but that is not necessarily the case. Either way, to conflate covenant and promise would make that verse unnecessarily circular and redundant, and nonsensical.

...does not invalidate a covenant so as to nullify the covenant.
...does not invalidate the promise so as to nullify the promise.
...does not invalidate the promise so as to nullify the covenant
.

Yet that is exactly what the words of this op argue. You have either misspoken or your theology is wrong. Attacking me will not change that fact, and neither will attempts to shift the onus onto me. Just prove covenants are promises of God or re-word the opening assertion so that it accurately reflects God's word.

The Bible's covenants contain promises made by God.

Or...

The soteriological covenants initiated by God that occur throughout the Bible contain promises made by God.


Solving the problem is that easy and you're wasting both our time arguing with me over your mistake and refusal to correct it.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

And yet we know that everyone who was included in some of the covenants did not receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Millions of Hebrews were treated as participants in the Abrahamic covenant, but they were purged from inheriting its promises because of unfaithfulness and disobedience. One reason for that is the covenants often come with promises of life and promises of death. Sometime life and death are two completely different and irreconcilable conditions so the covenant cannot be thought to be synonymous with promises. The promises do not define the whole of the covenant, nor does their constituency equate the whole.

...that were committed under the first promise, that they may receive the promise...
...that were committed under the first covenant, that they may receive the covenant...
...that were committed under the first promise, that they may receive the covenant
...


That is not what scripture teaches so either the opening statement of this op was mistakenly worded unintentionally contrary to the facts of scripture, or the underlying perspective is wrong.

Covenants contain promises, but that is not all they contain, nor is it all they do, nor are covenants synonymous with or identical to promises. It's up to you to prove otherwise (or acknowledge the above is correct and the op should be amended accordingly).



.
 
The idea of covenant is fundamental to the Bible’s story. At its most basic, covenant presents God’s desire to enter into relationship with men and women created in his image. This is reflected in the repeated covenant refrain, “I will be your God and you will be my people” (Exodus 6:6–8; Leviticus 26:12 etc.). Covenant is all about relationship between the Creator and his creation. The idea may seem simple; however, the implications of covenant and covenant relationship between God and humankind are vast …

The God of Covenant: Biblical, Theological And Contemporary Perspectives​

The contributors are David L. Baker, Christopher J. H. Wright, David Firth, James Hely Hutchinson, Tan Kim Huat, Alistair Wilson, Andrew T. B. McGowan, Harry Bunting and Colin Chapman.
 
The verse does not conflate promises with covenants. The op does.

No conflation at all. If you speak any language you will run across times when words overlap one another.

Not always. On many occasions the whole is much greater than the sum of its part. That comment is incorrect, and it is being asserted as a red herring in a question-begging manner. Prove covenants are the total of their parts and not something more.

Your judgement doesn't matter. First give a clear example of your claims contrary to fact that a whole is NOT made up of parts. You'll soon abandon your argument. You always do with your "MO" claiming "ad hominem". You're predictable. It always happens. Always. Just go ahead and get it over with.

Which is what I said. Covenants contain promises. Promises are not identical to or synonymous with covenants. Promises are a constituent component of covenants, not its whole. A common exegetical error is the construction fallacy in which what is true of the parts is thought to be true of the whole, or disparate terms are conflated. It's bad exegsis.

How are they different? You're the making the charge of "conflation" without identifying how covenants are not promises. God doesn't lie like men do.

Irrelevant. No one here is saying anything about Covenant Theology. That protest is an attempt at onus-shifting red herring when what should be happening is you proving "Covenants are 'the promises' of God." when an accurate understanding is that covenants include promises as a constituent element.

I'm here. I did. You're a covenant "something".

Try reading exactly what is posted and not imposing irrelevant prejudices and imagination on my posts.

Pretending I can't read is... "imposing irrelevant prejudices and imagination on my posts."

Covenants contain promises. Covenants are not identical to or synonymous with promises.

That is like saying. God isn't love because God loves. Love is identical to God. When God makes a promise it is a covenant.

What is true of the parts is not necessarily true of the whole, or the other parts.

With God. It most certainly is. Like I just said. You're providing proof that God isn't love because God is love. Love is synonymous with God. You can't have one without the other.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Covenant Theology, and the verses employed so far do not actually teach covenants and promises are identical, synonymous, or two things that can be conflated. If that were the case, then verses like Hebrews 8:6 would be unnecessarily redundant (and nonsensical).

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Better covenant. Requires better promises. One is not without the other. You're trying to disconnect parts from wholes. I'm not the one with the problem. You are. We have an history. I'm not going to ignore our history with one another. You can pretend this argument is excluded from our history if you desire. I'm not going to. We have "baggage" we care into this argument. That is who dishonest people pretend they are superior to one another. We have unfinished busy where you claim "ad hominem" and run away from arguments you've lost.
 
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The idea of covenant is fundamental to the Bible’s story. At its most basic, covenant presents God’s desire to enter into relationship with men and women created in his image. This is reflected in the repeated covenant refrain, “I will be your God and you will be my people” (Exodus 6:6–8; Leviticus 26:12 etc.). Covenant is all about relationship between the Creator and his creation. The idea may seem simple; however, the implications of covenant and covenant relationship between God and humankind are vast …

The God of Covenant: Biblical, Theological And Contemporary Perspectives​

The contributors are David L. Baker, Christopher J. H. Wright, David Firth, James Hely Hutchinson, Tan Kim Huat, Alistair Wilson, Andrew T. B. McGowan, Harry Bunting and Colin Chapman.

When God makes a promise that requires His effort alone, then it is a one way covenant. That is why when God swore an oath, He swore by Himself. Abraham broke God's covenant when he produced a child after the flesh in Ishmael. God didn't change nor did Abraham lose God's promises. God keep His promises.

You're referencing a theological bias in your author of choice. I hope you don't mind if I "flush it"......
 
If that were read through the opening assertion of this op, then the better covenant is enacted on better covenants, the better promises are enacted on better promises, the better promises are enacted on better covenants.

Read backward or forwards. It means the same thing. Do you seriously not understand how words overlap. Human language is the issue you have here. You don't understand how communication works among men. There is nothing about a covenant that isn't a promise when God is the one making the promise.

Now with men.... This is certainly different. They have their own requirements. Thusly, you have a language that crafted a word to recognize a unique difference. God didn't change. Men did.
 
When God makes a promise that requires His effort alone, then it is a one way covenant. That is why when God swore an oath, He swore by Himself. Abraham broke God's covenant when he produced a child after the flesh in Ishmael. God didn't change nor did Abraham lose God's promises. God keep His promises.

You're referencing a theological bias in your author of choice. I hope you don't mind if I "flush it"......
I'm here to learn.

We are still paying the price of the birth of Ishmael, namely Islam.

I have learned that Christians have some big differences in their understanding of the relationship between the covenants. They make my head hurt. But this is one of the primary reasons that we have different theological systems, which we can see today by the theologies of dispensationalism and by covenant theology. Even though these two views agree on the main issues central to the gospel, at the heart of these two systems there is disagreement on what the biblical covenants are and how they relate one to another.

So let the flushing begin.
 
I'm here to learn.

We are still paying the price of the birth of Ishmael, namely Islam.

I have learned that Christians have some big differences in their understanding of the relationship between the covenants. They make my head hurt. But this is one of the primary reasons that we have different theological systems, which we can see today by the theologies of dispensationalism and by covenant theology. Even though these two views agree on the main issues central to the gospel, at the heart of these two systems there is disagreement on what the biblical covenants are and how they relate one to another.

So let the flushing begin.
Ultimately, it is allegorical to the only Eternal heir of Abraham. Jesus Christ. The promise given to Eve in Genesis 3. In Jesus Christ all men have access to God. Ishmael and Isaac loved one another. Abraham loved Ishmael. Jesus Christ is the heir of all kingdoms of the earth. Not just some land in the Middle East. This fight that exist is solved already. Let every man embrace Jesus Christ. He has made peace through His cross.
 
Paul referenced a "covenant" as promises. I believe what Paul wrote. There are many promises that God has given to human. Some people only want to talk about those they "think" apply to them.

I started to openly discuss the chargers against me a couple of weeks ago of using "ad hominem" arguments. I believe I do that now. Depending how the @Administrator react to this, I'll stick around or not. I'll invite you to that discussion.
The only promises God gave out to anyone are given only to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13), and Abram's Hebrew seed, a people identified as the children of Israel and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
Twelve Hebrew tribes in total.

And that is all.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.

Those that were under the Law are the children of Israel (Jacob.)
Paul referenced a "covenant" as promises. I believe what Paul wrote. There are many promises that God has given to human. Some people only want to talk about those they "think" apply to them.

I started to openly discuss the chargers against me a couple of weeks ago of using "ad hominem" arguments. I believe I do that now. Depending how the @Administrator react to this, I'll stick around or not. I'll invite you to that discussion.
Don't just tell me about it, post the Scripture that proves it without twisting the Scripture.
 
No conflation at all.
The posts prove otherwise.
Read backward or forwards. It means the same thing.
It does not, and the onus is on you to prove this op correct.


Perhaps the answers to these questions will help clarify the inherent nature of covenants and their attributes.

  1. When did God first initiate any covenant?
  2. Are there any covenants with God that are not initiated solely by God?
  3. When God initiates a covenant and chooses the person(s) he intends to include in His God, does God first ask the original participant(s) if s/he/they want to chosen before He chooses them?
  4. When God initiates and calls the one(s) He intends to covenant with, does He ask any of them if they want to be called before He calls them?
  5. When God chooses and calls a person(s) in the Bible does He give them an opportunity to say, NO," at the time He initiates the choosing and calling of that covenant?
  6. Is there a covenant in the Bible that is explicitly stated to be unconditional?
  7. I have observed you observing a distinction between promissory covenants in which God makes promises that are His alone, or unidirectional, in comparison to those covenants in which promises are made by both parties and the promises contain conditions. That is a good and correct observation. My question is do you know the difference between a promissory covenant and a suzerain covenant? If so, what are the differences?
  8. Which covenants are solely promissory, and which are suzerain?
  9. Which of the covenants is completely unrelated to the covenant God made with Abraham?
  10. Which covenants are completely unrelated to the covenant in Christ?
  11. Is there any aspect of any covenant that is not a promise?


I know that's a lot of questions. Try to be succinct with the answers, please. We can elaborate the details in subsequent posts. I think, it is my hope, that in answering these questions you will come to your own realization the word "covenant" and the word "promise" are not identical or interchangeable. If that happens then just say so. "Ah! I get It!" That will suffice. We can then proceed to discuss the op with that amended understanding.
 
The posts prove otherwise.

It does not, and the onus is on you to prove this op correct.


Perhaps the answers to these questions will help clarify the inherent nature of covenants and their attributes.

  1. When did God first initiate any covenant?


  1. I'll answer the first one.

    You are demanding the word "covenant" be used to accept facts associated with a covenant to be true. I don't care about the word itself. I care about what that word means. Communications. There have been many users in this forum recently that are basing their entire theology on a single word and whether or not that word is used explicitly in communicating a teaching. Such is absolute nonsense. Like the old proverb "if it looks and acts like a duck"......

    God has made covenants for as long as there has being a "creation". Covenants contain promises. God doesn't lie. God's promises are certain. The only difference between promises and covenants are who are involved. Some promises are for certain people and some are not. God promised Satan and Eve that He would bring about Satan's destruction and Eve's vengeance. God will repay.
 


  1. I'll answer the first one.

    You are demanding the word "covenant" be used to accept facts associated with a covenant to be true. I don't care about the word itself. I care about what that word means. Communications. There have been many users in this forum recently that are basing their entire theology on a single word and whether or not that word is used explicitly in communicating a teaching. Such is absolute nonsense. Like the old proverb "if it looks and acts like a duck"......
Do you care about what the word means as defined by scripture?

If you care about what the word means and the word does not mean "promise" then this op is incorrect and you should care about that. Basing any theology on a single word is bad practice and I will readily join you in protest of that practice...... but what others do or do not do is no measure of my posts so please do not conflate my views with that of others. Instead, please address what I have posted exactly as I have posted it.
 
God has made covenants for as long as there has being a "creation".
That is incorrect.

The implied covenant between the Father and the Son in which Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice occurred prior to the creation of the world, according to 1 Peter 1:20.
Covenants contain promises.
Yes, they do. On that we agree, and I am glad to read you say that.
God doesn't lie.
God does not lie.
God's promises are certain.
God's promises are certain.
The only difference between promises and covenants are who are involved.
That is incorrect. Covenants contain many constituent components other than promises. Covenants contain promises, but promises do not contain covenants.
Some promises are for certain people and some are not.
If that is stated in the promise.
God promised Satan and Eve that He would bring about Satan's destruction and Eve's vengeance. God will repay.
Yes and that is an example of a promise that is not a covenant!



You have, therefore, just disproved the opening statement of this op!
 
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