Could it be happening now ?

[Affinity]

I like how Paul tells us all we need to know about the Rapture:

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

 

[dwight92070]

There's some strong logical arguments for a gap between 69 and 70.

I read it that way before I even heard of Darby or futurism.

Okay, give me one or two please.

 

[Diserner]

Okay, give me one or two please.

If you are a Full Preterist you obviously won't find it convincing due to the presuppositions involved.

But the events of the 70th week coincide too closely with the other eschatological passages in parallel.

The Messiah cannot be the one who makes a covenant with many, because he is not the last referenced person, and is cut off before the 70th week.

 

[Rockson]

I question I have.....the 70 weeks of Daniel theme. 69 weeks until the time of Christ....(every year being 7) and the thought that one last week is held over to the time of the end. I was watching a video by Steve Gregg....not sure I agree I believe on how he teaches all bible subjects. I tend to be more of a futurist.....he's a partial preterist.

But he talks about the 70 weeks and 69 plus one held over and challenges that as perhaps not being valid. So what is the evidence which dictates this 70th actual week is held over for the time of the end. Is it really absolute conclusive evidence as one might say it is or have Bible teachers just presumed certain things and it's become a paradigm that's now hard to question? Not sure I agree with Gregg on this but it could make for some interesting discussion.

 

[Diserner]

So what is the evidence which dictates this 70th actual week is held over for the time of the end.

It describes the work of the Antichrist as first coming in peace (making a covenant with many) but half way through revealing who he really is and defiling the sanctuary.

Many other verses confirm this same end time pattern and it is said that it is a time of difficulty never seen since the world began (unrepeated).

 

[civic]

Some of the land was conditionally promised as well, not unconditionally.

Messianic Jewish theologian Dr. David H. Stern explains:


“Greek plerdma (“fullness”) probably refers not to number (the full complement of Gentiles saved throughout history) but to breadth of representation… The fullness of the Gentile world comes in when all components and subgroups of humanity are contributing people to the Kingdom.”.

The Gentile members of the Church play a crucial role in God’s plan for salvation for Israel, including the day when “all Israel will be saved”.

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will turn his gaze towards Israel, as Romans 11:26 lays it out. It entreats the reader to ask, who is Israel?

What does “Israel” mean?​

“And so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” (Romans 11:26 NASB)

Who exactly is this powerful verse speaking of?

Some scholars believe Paul refers to a spiritual Israel. Meaning, it enmeshes the Gentile Church with Israel, creating a so-called “new Israel”.

But this perspective reduces the purposes and promises specifically made to the descendants of Abraham! And it doesn’t line up with Paul’s careful distinction between his kinsmen and the believing Gentiles throughout his passionate letter.

In fact, Israel here refers to actual, ethnic Israel.

All Israel will be saved when the Deliverer comes from Zion. The existing, partial hardening of Israel dissolves. The salvation of Israel leads from death to life for the whole world.

How can we know for sure that this will happen?

The Relationship Between God and Israel​

“Despite the majority of Israel currently still being in rebellion, God will not forget His people, and will pour His Spirit on Israel at a specific point in time, in agreement with the covenantal promises.” Dr. Eitan Bar, One for Israel.

God’s might and power is evident in His everlasting promise to Israel (first laid out in Genesis 12:1-3). There, the Lord promises He will make Abram into a great nation and will bless him.

Even when Israel rejected God, her calling was certain. When we are faithless, He is faithful. You can look at Israel to understand how a righteous King relates to his people. How a father relates to his oldest child. It’s both severe and faithful.

Until All Israel Will Be Saved​

Romans 11 establishes that Gentile believers in Jesus have a very important role in God’s plan of salvation. It is an incredibly rich and yet also mysterious passage of Scripture. In this plan, Israel too has a specific function.

And from Paul’s vantage point, God’s specific purpose for Israel combines with the purposes He has for the nations – for the entire world.

This is because, we see in Romans 11:15 that their rejection of the Messiah resulted in reconciliation to the world. So then, when the Jewish People accept their Messiah, it will result in nothing less than life from the dead.

“This seems to suggest that Israel entering her fullness will trigger the general resurrection and the consummation of all things,” explains Rabbi Dr. Stuart Dauermann.

Jew and Gentile Together​

One thing becomes clear. Sharing the Gospel with the Jewish people, which some think has an unusual amount of attention or priority, significantly relates to all humanity.

In the Kingdom to come, Israel and the nations will worship God together. As we walk in our God-ordained callings as Jews and Gentiles in Messiah, we honor Adonai and get a taste of that Kingdom fellowship now!

Consider today how you contribute to the fulfillment of Paul’s exhortation to awaken the Jewish people. May we press on until all Israel believes and the King is on the throne. https://firmisrael.org/learn/all-israel-will-be-saved-understanding-god-in-romans-11/

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

By going to the cross Jesus prepare the place for us in heaven. I hope Jesus is ready I know I am.

“This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”
MATTHEW 24:14

I would say that verse has literally been fulfilled. So the end could come at any time. But it's not really the end is it.... it's the beginning.

I'm thinking Matthew 24:14 actually refers to this:

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

If you keep reading Revelation after that, the end sure comes.

 

[Diserner]

“And so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” (Romans 11:26 NASB)

In fact, Israel here refers to actual, ethnic Israel.

Think about this for a second.

If all Israel means all ethnic Israel, and let's say, this is some end time revival where literally every single person in ethnic Israel gets saved... what about the millions and millions of ethnic Israel who just happened to live before the final revival?

Aren't they "all Israel" too?

Why do we get some special rule to rule them out?

Since we know historically millions and millions of ethnic Israelites have simply rejected or been ignorant of their Messiah, it is literally impossible for "ALL" Israel to be saved.

Best to find a different interpretation for this verse.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Is the rapture and return of Christ imminent?

Are we about to enter into the time of Jacob’s Trouble , the great tribulation period ?



View Video #2

Great videos!
There is overwhelming evidence that the Revelation 12 Sign depicted in Rev.12:1-2 took place on September 23/24, 2017. The main problem here is that most people never actually did the research to determine it's validity at that time. And now that there are astronomical signs that appear to compliment that sign all over the internet, those who didn't originally know about, or research it's validity, are prone to dismiss the possible connection between it and the recent [possible] additional/complimentary signs.

I would liken the scenario to math students who have never completed/ passed a class in Algebra 1 being introduced to the axioms proposed in a Calculus 1 class ... they would understandably be lost to the foundational concepts. It would be difficult to even convince many of those students that there is even any actual connection between Calculus 1 and general, elementary, mathematics ... since their understanding of the matter is in reality veiled to their understandings. In my opinion, nobody thus far has even come close to debunking the Revelation 12 sign.

I'm as sick and tired as the next guy concerning all of the false Rapture date predictions that were supposedly claimed to be connected to, or based on the Revelation 12 Sign [or any other sign for that matter]. A genuine sign is made no less genuine just because there have been so many specific dates attached to them by professing Christians. However, just because all these foolish specific Rapture dates were constantly and wrongly proclaimed, it would certainly be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bath water IMHO [my opinion as one who has spent much time carefully analyzing the data surrounding "The Sign of the Sun-Clothed Woman"/"The Revelation 12 Sign" prior and subsequent to it's appearance on September 23, 2017.

Conclusion - I remain convinced of the validity of the Revelation Sign. There is much evidence linking/associating it with the Rapture event, but very little evidence that it will yield a specific, precise date of the Rapture.
The scriptures clearly tell us that those counted among the final generation of the followers of Jesus of would know the general timing of the Rapture event ... and there is no way [outside of a direct revelation from God] of knowing that season apart from identifying the many clear end time signs that God has shown to the world ... with the Revelation 12 Signs being among those key indicators.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 :

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I question I have.....the 70 weeks of Daniel theme. 69 weeks until the time of Christ....(every year being 7) and the thought that one last week is held over to the time of the end. I was watching a video by Steve Gregg....not sure I agree I believe on how he teaches all bible subjects. I tend to be more of a futurist.....he's a partial preterist.

But he talks about the 70 weeks and 69 plus one held over and challenges that as perhaps not being valid. So what is the evidence which dictates this 70th actual week is held over for the time of the end. Is it really absolute conclusive evidence as one might say it is or have Bible teachers just presumed certain things and it's become a paradigm that's now hard to question? Not sure I agree with Gregg on this but it could make for some interesting discussion.

Have I been writing to a vacuum? (lol) I laid it all out in this post:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/could-it-be-happening-now.707/post-19180

 

[civic]

Think about this for a second.

If all Israel means all ethnic Israel, and let's say, this is some end time revival where literally every single person in ethnic Israel gets saved... what about the millions and millions of ethnic Israel who just happened to live before the final revival?

Aren't they "all Israel" too?

Why do we get some special rule to rule them out?

Since we know historically millions and millions of ethnic Israelites have simply rejected or been ignorant of their Messiah, it is literally impossible for "ALL" Israel to be saved.

Best to find a different interpretation for this verse.

All Israel that God plans to save will be saved not one more or one less. Just like the times of the gentiles- until every last one God plans to be saved then that time will end and the focus will be upon the Jews, National Israel. Its all the nations in the end that wage war on Israel in Armageddon.

 

[civic]

Great videos!
There is overwhelming evidence that the Revelation 12 Sign depicted in Rev.12:1-2 took place on September 23/24, 2017. The main problem here is that most people never actually did the research to determine it's validity at that time. And now that there are astronomical signs that appear to compliment that sign all over the internet, those who didn't originally know about, or research it's validity, are prone to dismiss the possible connection between it and the recent [possible] additional/complimentary signs.

I would liken the scenario to math students who have never completed/ passed a class in Algebra 1 being introduced to the axioms proposed in a Calculus 1 class ... they would understanding be lost to the concepts. It would be difficult to even convince many of those students that there is even any actual connection between Calculus 1 and general, elementary, mathematics ... since their understanding of the matter is in reality veiled to their understandings. In my opinion, nobody thus far has even come close to debunking the Revelation 12 sign.

I'm as sick and tired as the next guy concerning all of the false Rapture date predictions that were supposedly claimed to be connected to, or based on the Revelation 12 Sign [or any other sign for that matter]. A genuine sign is made no less genuine just because there have been so many specific dates attached to them by professing Christians. However, just because all these foolish specific Rapture dates were constantly and wrongly proclaimed, it would certainly be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bath water IMHO [my opinion as one who has spent much time carefully analyzing the data surrounding "The Sign of the Sun-Clothed Woman"/"The Revelation 12 Sign" prior and subsequent to it's appearance on September 23, 2017.

Conclusion - I remain convinced of the validity of the Revelation Sign. There is much evidence linking/associating it with the Rapture event, but very little evidence that it will yield a specific, precise date of the Rapture.
The scriptures clearly tell us that those counted among the final generation of the followers of Jesus of would know the general timing of the Rapture event ... and there is no way [outside of a direct revelation from God] of knowing that season apart from identifying the many clear end time signs that God has shown to the world ... with the Revelation 12 Signs being among those key indicators.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-7 :

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

I appreciate the input and this is all pretty new to me with the Revelation 12 signs. I'm trying to stay open minded to them. I'm not for any date setting but I do believe we can know when our Redemption draweth near.

 

[Diserner]

All Israel that God plans to save will be saved not one more or one less.

Little of the old Calvinism still leaking through the cracks?

 

[civic]

Have I been writing to a vacuum? I laid it all out in this post:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/could-it-be-happening-now.707/post-19180

Sometimes its hard to follow all of the posts so I don't believe it was intentional at all. Its been pretty busy today keeping up with everything.

 

[civic]

Little of the old Calvinism still leaking through the cracks?

semi lol just that Gods in control and on His timeline will bring in the time of Jacobs trouble.

 

[dwight92070]

Several times you've stated this. Not sure why someone hasn't pointed out the answer in the same part of II Peter you are referring to. Read all of II Peter 3:1-13. Peter is talking about the day of the Lord and the day of judgement and the day of God - all the same thing. Did you miss verse 8?

[2Pe 3:8 LSB] 8 But do not let this one [fact] escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Peter knew perfectly well that the Day of the Lord is not just the act of when Messiah returns. But the return means the entire period - the Sabbath Day. The 1000 year Day. With the final act in the existence of time to be the destruction of current universe.

The point Peter is making about verse 8 is explained in verse 9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." Also notice who Peter is talking to in verse 8 - "beloved". The message of verse 8 and 9 was for Christians who lived at the time of Peter, not some cryptic message for Christians living near the end times. Of course, we can learn from that message, but it was specifically given to them.
Also, Peter said that with the Lord one day IS LIKE a thousand years and a thousand years LIKE one day. He didn't say that one day WAS a thousand years or that a thousand years WAS one day.
Apparently some Christians were getting impatient, wanting God to hurry up and come and set things straight on the earth, especially because they were experiencing persecutions and suffering. They thought God was too slow about fulfilling His promise to do that. So Peter tells them, basically, that even if they had to wait another 1000 years, that would only be like a day for God, and that the only reason He is waiting is because He wants more to come to repentance and be saved.
But if you insist on interpreting it that way, then consider this, because that way of thinking can be reversed too. When Revelation 20 speaks of one thousand years, maybe it really means just ONE 24-hour DAY, according to your theory. So if that's what it means, then the millennium is out the window.
Your other theory that I "hear" you presenting is that there is only 6000 years "predestined" for man before a 1000 year "Sabbath". First of all, we're 23 years past that already. Second, if that were true, then we could pretty closely predict the year of His return, which would have been the year 2000 - and of course, He did not come. I know that we have to allow for some error in the calendar, etc., but all of this is nothing more than speculation on your part. Also, I doubt that He would want us to even be able to predict His coming, even within a few years.
Since the beginning of time, the word "day" has always meant "there was evening and there was morning - ONE day" 24 hours. I don't think the Lord is going to change the meaning now or in the future.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The point Peter is making about verse 8 is explained in verse 9: "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." Also notice who Peter is talking to in verse 8 - "beloved". The message of verse 8 and 9 was for Christians who lived at the time of Peter, not some cryptic message about the end times.
Also, Peter said that with the Lord one day IS LIKE a thousand years and a thousand years LIKE one day. He didn't say that one day WAS a thousand years or that a thousand years WAS one day.
Apparently some Christians were getting impatient, wanting God to hurry up and come and set things straight on the earth, especially because they were experiencing persecutions and suffering. They thought God was too slow about fulfilling His promise to do that. So Peter tells them, basically, that even if they had to wait another 1000 years, that would only be like a day for God, and that the only reason He is waiting is because He wants more to come to repentance and be saved.
But if you insist on interpreting it that way, then consider this, because that way of thinking can be reversed too. When Revelation 20 speaks of one thousand years, maybe it really means just ONE 24-hour DAY, according to your theory. So if that's what it means, then the millennium is out the window.
Your other theory that I "hear" you presenting is that there is only 6000 years "predestined" for man before a 1000 year "Sabbath". First of all, we're 23 years past that already. Second, if that were true, then we could pretty closely predict the year of His return, which would have been the year 2000 - and of course, He did not come. I know that we have to allow for some error in the calendar, etc., but all of this is nothing more than speculation on your part.

I don't know where you get the "23 years" from. Unless you mean there is something special about 2000 AD? You do know there is no such thing as a Year 0, right?

And as I stated, please watch my information before stating that I'm wrong. You obviously aren't aware of all the evidences that DO show there are 7000 years allotted to human history.

 

[civic]

I don't know where you get the "23 years" from. Unless you mean there is something special about 2000 AD? You do know there is no such thing as a Year 0, right?

And as I stated, please watch my information before stating that I'm wrong. You obviously aren't aware of all the evidences that DO show there are 7000 years allotted to human history.

I think its a calendar issue not understanding the dates/timelines. I know ours is off for sure. I think your chart shows the correct one.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I tend to lean toward partial-Preterism. Though I have my own beliefs. I tend to be a rebel in most anything "traditional".

I don't see how the UN recognizing national Israel fulfills any prophecy. Can you point to one for me.

The rebirth, or more precisely, the 'resurrection' of the nation of Israel was prophesied in the Old Testament Book of Ezekiel chapter 37. In this chapter, God is prophesying that Israel will become a nation again in the last days.

Ezekiel 37:12–14, "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord."[NKJV].

God promised the Jewish people, who had been scattered from their land, that He would raise the nation from “the dead” (v.1-11) by bringing the Jewish people back to the land He had given them and that they would become a nation once again—in the last days.

On May 14th, 1948 Israel was ‘raised from the dead’ after 1900 years by declaring itself a nation. The above prophecy has already been partially fulfilled (it will be completely fulfilled when Messiah reigns from Jerusalem over the earth during the Millennial Kingdom).

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you think modern day Israel back in the land plays any role in end time events ?

My issue with this view is that national Israel has not truly been established for a very long time. God dispersed Israel and they never really joined as a complete nation since. Not even now. Which is why I asked about the relevance of various nations recognizing Israel. Also Jesus dealt with them as a fracture nation during His Advent. I do believe true Israel is established in the faithful of both Jews and Gentiles. Also, I believe ethic Israel has married among Gentiles for so long they have no real claim to the distinction. They are logically Gentiles themselves. I do believe the fullness of the Gentiles is meaningful but I believe it might be the culmination of all peoples in the Resurrection. Which would support Paul's words concerning the new creature rendering such distinct irrelevant. My penny.