Concupiscence

[TibiasDad]

Similar but not identical. Can we agree?

Adam was not and could not ever be exactly like God, simply because he was created. But he was created to be compatible with God:

Gen 1:26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, (Heb, demuth, resemblance) so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

After Satan sinned.

Who do you want to start with? Why Adam? Abel didn't sin like Adam...

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Babies die before they have the chance to sin “after the similitude of Adam's transgression…”.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Who do you want to start with? Why Adam?

Because we are talking about the human condition!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Also, you said Christ was Impeccable.

Christ became like Adam, nothing more, nothing less. He subjected himself to death! God dying, does that sound impeccable? That Jesus would not sin, does not mean that he could not sin.

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'd like everyone to read these words and see if you can understand their meaning in the context of our discussion here....

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because we are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Adam was not and could not ever be exactly like God, simply because he was created. But he was created to be compatible with God:

Gen 1:26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, (Heb, demuth, resemblance) so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Doug

Okay. Might those limitations include what Adam was made from?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Babies die before they have the chance to sin “after the similitude of Adam's transgression…”.

Doug

Okay. So you're stating this is exclusively about babies? I'll bite.

So when does someone not classify as a baby anymore? I've meet 40 year old children before and I'm not talking about physical impairments.

Again. Abel didn't sin like Adam.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because we are talking about the human condition!

Doug

So the context of "original sin" can't be about Satan?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Christ became like Adam, nothing more, nothing less. He subjected himself to death! God dying, does that sound impeccable? That Jesus would not sin, does not mean that he could not sin.

Doug

That isn't what the teaching of the Hypostatic Union teaches. You can challenge that teaching and fine with you doing so but this isn't the teaching that comes from Trinitarianism.

That is the usual response when we get into subjects like this. Theologians will want to make Christ more like themselves.

Though Christ was flesh, He was never less than fully God. As such, Christ is Impeccable. Christ had power that Adam never had.

 

[TibiasDad]

Sounds boring.

Truth is never boring…

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Okay. Might those limitations include what Adam was made from?

Adam is physical God is spirit. Jesus was “limited” by the incarnation; it’s awfully hard to be omnipresent as a man.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

That isn't what the teaching of the Hypostatic Union teaches. You can challenge that teaching and fine with you doing so but this isn't the teaching that comes from Trinitarianism.

That is the usual response when we get into subjects like this. Theologians will want to make Christ more like themselves.

Though Christ was flesh, He was never less than fully God. As such, Christ is Impeccable. Christ had power that Adam never had.

He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


Doug

 

[GallagherM]

Truth is never boring…

Doug

Hello TibiasDad,

I believe that seeking for truth is great. I never said it was boring. What to me is boring is when arguments are had and neither mind is changed. That is what I personally find boring. I'm starting to learn how to give in just a little, though, to those who already have their minds made up. It's kind of like how Paul went to to those under Law, as though he was under law, and those who were not under law, he went to as though he was not under law.

Thank you for your time,
Matthew

 

[praise_yeshua]

Adam is physical God is spirit. Jesus was “limited” by the incarnation; it’s awfully hard to be omnipresent as a man.

Doug

Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Maybe I know the bible better than you do? I remembered this verse when I read your words. Maybe it was the Spirit of God within me.

Which one do you choose? Was it me or the Spirit of God?

Either way, you need to reconsider.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


Doug

The body of Christ died. Christ experienced physical death. Christ wasn't damned for us. At every level you come at these truths, you're facing obvious facts that you're not accounting for in your theology.

 

[TibiasDad]

Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Maybe I know the bible better than you do? I remembered this verse when I read your words. Maybe it was the Spirit of God within me.

Which one do you choose? Was it me or the Spirit of God?

Either way, you need to reconsider.

John 7:16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

The father revealed this to the son. Jesus did not speak of his own accord. God gave the 12 to Jesus.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The body of Christ died. Christ experienced physical death. Christ wasn't damned for us. At every level you come at these truths, you're facing obvious facts that you're not accounting for in your theology.

This says nothing about what I said:

He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

John 7:16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

The father revealed this to the son. Jesus did not speak of his own accord. God gave the 12 to Jesus.

Doug

So you're abandoning the Divine Personage of Jesus Christ?

You're not paying attention to what it says.

Jesus saw Nathan under a tree and wasn't there. Also, Jesus knew what Phillip and Nathan talked about without being there to physically hear it.

The Son is innately God. The references you're appealing to is a statement of agreement. Nothing more. Jesus was appealing to His Divine origins. It wasn't that what Jesus possessed in essence in the Incarnation was anything less than God.

You're surprising me. I wouldn't have placed you as actually saying this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This says nothing about what I said:

He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!


Doug

You're operating in the "edges" of multiple positions here. You said that Christ in Person wasn't "omnipresent as a man"

That is what you said. You're dividing the Union of Christ with his humanity. You are appealing to verses as if Christ is only a man. You then are appealing to verses as if Christ is only God.

When you "JOIN" these aspects in what we teach as the "Hypostatic Union", we don't do this. We don't divide the Hypostatic Union.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you're abandoning the Divine Personage of Jesus Christ?

No, why do you keep asking inane questions? I’m not going to argue for the sake of argument.

Being fully God means that he is in control of his attributes. The person of the Son limited himself to the capacities of human beings. As a man, he depended solely on God, just as all men must, not on his own power or authority. He had his attributes, but did not avail himself of them. He always lived a “not my will but yours be done” life. He did or said nothing of his own accord.


Doug