TibiasDad
Active Member
Babies die before they have the chance to sin “after the similitude of Adam's transgression…”.
Doug
Concupiscence
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
TibiasDad
Active Member
Christ became like Adam, nothing more, nothing less. He subjected himself to death! God dying, does that sound impeccable? That Jesus would not sin, does not mean that he could not sin.
Doug
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'd like everyone to read these words and see if you can understand their meaning in the context of our discussion here....
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because we are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because we are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Okay. Might those limitations include what Adam was made from?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Okay. So you're stating this is exclusively about babies? I'll bite.
So when does someone not classify as a baby anymore? I've meet 40 year old children before and I'm not talking about physical impairments.
Again. Abel didn't sin like Adam.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So the context of "original sin" can't be about Satan?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That isn't what the teaching of the Hypostatic Union teaches. You can challenge that teaching and fine with you doing so but this isn't the teaching that comes from Trinitarianism.
That is the usual response when we get into subjects like this. Theologians will want to make Christ more like themselves.
Though Christ was flesh, He was never less than fully God. As such, Christ is Impeccable. Christ had power that Adam never had.
TibiasDad
Active Member
TibiasDad
Active Member
Adam is physical God is spirit. Jesus was “limited” by the incarnation; it’s awfully hard to be omnipresent as a man.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Doug
GallagherM
Active Member
Hello TibiasDad,
I believe that seeking for truth is great. I never said it was boring. What to me is boring is when arguments are had and neither mind is changed. That is what I personally find boring. I'm starting to learn how to give in just a little, though, to those who already have their minds made up. It's kind of like how Paul went to to those under Law, as though he was under law, and those who were not under law, he went to as though he was not under law.
Thank you for your time,
Matthew
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Maybe I know the bible better than you do? I remembered this verse when I read your words. Maybe it was the Spirit of God within me.
Which one do you choose? Was it me or the Spirit of God?
Either way, you need to reconsider.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
The body of Christ died. Christ experienced physical death. Christ wasn't damned for us. At every level you come at these truths, you're facing obvious facts that you're not accounting for in your theology.
TibiasDad
Active Member
John 7:16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
The father revealed this to the son. Jesus did not speak of his own accord. God gave the 12 to Jesus.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
This says nothing about what I said:
He never stopped being fully God, but he did not avail himself of rights of being fully God. “
Phil 2:6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Doug
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you're abandoning the Divine Personage of Jesus Christ?
You're not paying attention to what it says.
Jesus saw Nathan under a tree and wasn't there. Also, Jesus knew what Phillip and Nathan talked about without being there to physically hear it.
The Son is innately God. The references you're appealing to is a statement of agreement. Nothing more. Jesus was appealing to His Divine origins. It wasn't that what Jesus possessed in essence in the Incarnation was anything less than God.
You're surprising me. I wouldn't have placed you as actually saying this.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're operating in the "edges" of multiple positions here. You said that Christ in Person wasn't "omnipresent as a man"
That is what you said. You're dividing the Union of Christ with his humanity. You are appealing to verses as if Christ is only a man. You then are appealing to verses as if Christ is only God.
When you "JOIN" these aspects in what we teach as the "Hypostatic Union", we don't do this. We don't divide the Hypostatic Union.
TibiasDad
Active Member
No, why do you keep asking inane questions? I’m not going to argue for the sake of argument.
Being fully God means that he is in control of his attributes. The person of the Son limited himself to the capacities of human beings. As a man, he depended solely on God, just as all men must, not on his own power or authority. He had his attributes, but did not avail himself of them. He always lived a “not my will but yours be done” life. He did or said nothing of his own accord.
Doug
I too, have spent a lot of time studying Scriptures concerning the Popular religious philosophy in this world God placed me in, that all humans are born with a "Sin Nature". This philosophy is not isolated to just Calvinism in my view, but is pretty much a foundational doctrine for much of this world's religions, who profess to know God.
What I have found in my study, and having observed in my own children, is that humans are born with desires and lusts, the capacity for anger, compassion, loyalty, the drive for self preservation and self interest, and most interesting to me, is stubbornness. Watch the behavior of a Toddler and it is easy to see all these natural components of the humans mind. I too, was convinced that all these natural tendencies were proof that humans are born with a Sin Nature, but have since questioned this popular philosophy. I think the poster has maybe come to the same conclusion.
As I studied, it became more evident and God Himself, exhibited all of these tendencies. He has and expressed His Desires, concerning His creation. He showed the capacity for self interest.
Ez. 36: 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
God clearly has Anger. And perhaps HE doesn't have the drive for "Self Preservation", nevertheless, for His Kingdom's Sake, HE has placed condition and restriction on His Own Free will, like Mercy and Just Judgment, without which no kingdom can survive.
And who can argue with the fact that God is Steadfast/stubborn in His Ways. How many times has HE said, "I am God, and there is no other", and of course, "I am God, I change not".
Consider Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego. They were, of their own free will, loyal to God, they lusted and desired God's Promises which are the ultimate "Self Interest, and self Preservation", in my view. And consider their stubbornness.
15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that "we will not" serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Imagine how stubborn these 3 must have seemed to the King. That they would risk death, before rejecting the instruction of their God and risk forfeiting the Promises He made to them.
And this ability, this capacity, was instilled in them and every human, at birth.
Jesus too, exhibited all this traits, but used them as a shield and weapon for self preservation. He had the power to knock every Pharisee off their horse, like HE did Paul, but even after HE rose from the dead, HE only chose the ones God sent to Him. Like His Father, He chose to place the limitations of His free Will that His Father gave Him. He exhibited Anger at the mainstream preachers of His Time, and could have destroyed all of them with one prayer. But HE placed, of His own free Will, limitation of His anger according to the will of God.
Paul talks about being "Steadfast" in this Belief in God, which HE calls "Faith". Surely Shadrack exhibited this steadfastness. I could go on and on, but it seems to me that when God said HE created humans in His Likeness, this is what HE meant. And for those who "Yield themselves" to Him and "Seek His Righteousness", these folks learn how to use these natural human emotions and tendencies as God intended. And those who are "Learned of the Father" are given to Jesus for cleansing.
Clearly there are righteous desires and unrighteous desires.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
It isn't the natural desire to want something, or to seek self interest in my view, that is evil. It's "Yielding ourselves" To God, letting Him teach and direct us in how to use, and where to direct them, that they become the blessing, in my view.
Even Jesus "Learned obedience from the things He suffered", and this is righteousness, in my understanding.
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