Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

On the contrary, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement.

Christ's failure atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time because a person free-will chooses to Christ.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!".

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

 

[TibiasDad]

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

How do we believe it to be a failure?
Can you quote any “free-willian” that Christ’s atonement failed?

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Am I to take this to imply that we who disagree with your views are not Christians? Christ’s atonement reconciled the world to God:

2 Cor 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

All people are reconciled to God through Christ! God can now forgive us; he has chosen to not hold our sins against us in order that we might become his righteousness. This is the message of the gospel- we have been reconciled to God; come to him and be received in Christ!

The atonement does not save in and of itself, it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled. That’s why our message is “Be reconciled to God!”


Doug

 

[civic]

How do we believe it to be a failure?
Can you quote any “free-willian” that Christ’s atonement failed?



Am I to take this to imply that we who disagree with your views are not Christians? Christ’s atonement reconciled the world to God:

2 Cor 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

All people are reconciled to God through Christ! God can now forgive us; he has chosen to not hold our sins against us in order that we might become his righteousness. This is the message of the gospel- we have been reconciled to God; come to him and be received in Christ!

The atonement does not save in and of itself, it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled. That’s why our message is “Be reconciled to God!”


Doug

Amen as we can see the opposition makes the gospel null and void.

 

[Joe]

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

Our Lord's death that He experienced-tasted was for everyone.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.​

And in His death, the free gift of being righteous before God came to all men, likened to Adam's one sin condemned all men.

Rom 5:17-18 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

And the free gift that results to justification to eternal life is received by whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

​

Rom 5:1, 8-9 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,..But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.​

Your declaration that the whole world is exclusive only to whom our Lord chooses defeats the purpose of saying the whole world, everyone, all men. It is like someone at work announcing, "I will give a free gift to the whole workplace", and then only give the gift to a few people of his choosing instead of what he announced. What do you think of someone who is deceptive in that manner?

And you have it wrong that our Lord Jesus Christ chooses who comes to Him. He said, "All those whom the Father gives me will come to me". And to clear it up, He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me."

The prerequisite to coming to our Lord is that they hear what the Father says in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and learns from it of their condemned position and His salvation. This is why we preach the Gospel, for without hearing God's message of His Son how can they believe as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 10.


God Bless

 

[Kampioen]

On the contrary, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement.

[*]The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.
[/LIST]
So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

The atonement doesn't provide faith. So lack of faith doesn't imply a failure of the atonement.

Otherwise people would already be forgiven when Christ died rather than living dead in sin for years before ever having faith as if a lacking or delayed atonement rather than a finished atonement.

 

[civic]

Our Lord's death that He experienced-tasted was for everyone.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.​

And in His death, the free gift of being righteous before God came to all men, likened to Adam's one sin condemned all men.

Rom 5:17-18 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

And the free gift that results to justification to eternal life is received by whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

​

Rom 5:1, 8-9 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,..But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.​

Your declaration that the whole world is exclusive only to whom our Lord chooses defeats the purpose of saying the whole world, everyone, all men. It is like someone at work announcing, "I will give a free gift to the whole workplace", and then only give the gift to a few people of his choosing instead of what he announced. What do you think of someone who is deceptive in that manner?

And you have it wrong that our Lord Jesus Christ chooses who comes to Him. He said, "All those whom the Father gives me will come to me". And to clear it up, He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me."

The prerequisite to coming to our Lord is that they hear what the Father says in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and learns from it of their condemned position and His salvation. This is why we preach the Gospel, for without hearing God's message of His Son how can they believe as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 10.


God Bless

Amen brother !!!

 

[Kermos]

How do we believe it to be a failure?
Can you quote any “free-willian” that Christ’s atonement failed?



Am I to take this to imply that we who disagree with your views are not Christians? Christ’s atonement reconciled the world to God:

2 Cor 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

All people are reconciled to God through Christ! God can now forgive us; he has chosen to not hold our sins against us in order that we might become his righteousness. This is the message of the gospel- we have been reconciled to God; come to him and be received in Christ!

The atonement does not save in and of itself, it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled. That’s why our message is “Be reconciled to God!”


Doug

Dear TibiasDad,

You asked "How do we believe it to be a failure", and the answer is in your own writing of "Christ’s atonement reconciled the world to God" in which you include people like "Nancy of the world" resulting in Christ's failure atonement for people like "Nancy of the world".

You also asked "Can you quote any “free-willian” that Christ’s atonement failed", and the answer is in your own writing where you used 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 to convey that people like "Nancy of the world" are reconciled to God - people like "Nancy of the world" under everlasting damnation. See that you exclaimed "All people are reconciled to God through Christ".

You asked even more with "Am I to take this to imply that we who disagree with your views are not Christians" about how Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to write "We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds". The answer is that how you take it is between you and God, after all, it is a statement of fact, not accusation.

In your conclusion, you wrote "The atonement does not save in and of itself, it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled".

Intertwined inside of your statements of "The atonement does not save in and of itself" (about atonement) and "it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure.

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2.​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[TibiasDad]

Dear TibiasDad,

You asked "How do we believe it to be a failure", and the answer is in your own writing of "Christ’s atonement reconciled the world to God" in which you include people like "Nancy of the world" resulting in Christ's failure atonement for people like "Nancy of the world".

You also asked "Can you quote any “free-willian” that Christ’s atonement failed", and the answer is in your own writing where you used 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 to convey that people like "Nancy of the world" are reconciled to God - people like "Nancy of the world" under everlasting damnation. See that you exclaimed "All people are reconciled to God through Christ".

You asked even more with "Am I to take this to imply that we who disagree with your views are not Christians" about how Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to write "We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds". The answer is that how you take it is between you and God, after all, it is a statement of fact, not accusation.

In your conclusion, you wrote "The atonement does not save in and of itself, it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled".

Intertwined inside of your statements of "The atonement does not save in and of itself" (about atonement) and "it just allows God the means of forgiving so that salvation/reconciliation can be fulfilled" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure.

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2.​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

In Christ,
Kermos

It did not fail, it provides the means for all men to be saved if and when they believe. Jesus’s words in John 15 were specific to the calling of the 12 for their role as his disciples.

“The whole world”, means every person’s sins have been atoned for, but this doesn’t mean forgiveness is actuated- that requires confession and repentance. “If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us our sins…” and “repent for the forgiveness of sins..”! Atonement and forgiveness are separate phases in the salvation process. No one is saved until they confess, repent, and thereby show that they believe! “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins.”


Doug

 

[Scott]

Jesus never fails. I put my faith and trust in Him. And used my freewill to do it.

 

[Kermos]

Amen as we can see the opposition makes the gospel null and void.

As we can see in post #7, you are gravely mistaken about the Gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), again.

"Amen" ("truly") says you to including people like "Nancy of the world" inside of the our in the Holy Spirit inspired "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4); therefore, you convey that Christ's failure atonement is your gospel. Be very careful about how you apply "truly", @civic.

 

[civic]

As we can see in post #7, you are gravely mistaken about the Gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), again.

"Amen" ("truly") says you to including people like "Nancy of the world" inside of the our in the Holy Spirit inspired "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4); therefore, you convey that Christ's failure atonement is your gospel. Be very careful about how you apply "truly", @civic.

Belief in His atonement, the gospel saves, unbelief condemns. Jesus puts that responsibility on man to believe.

see John 3:16-18

and these as well

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

 

[Kermos]

Our Lord's death that He experienced-tasted was for everyone.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.​

And in His death, the free gift of being righteous before God came to all men, likened to Adam's one sin condemned all men.

Rom 5:17-18 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

And the free gift that results to justification to eternal life is received by whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

​

Rom 5:1, 8-9 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,..But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.​

Your declaration that the whole world is exclusive only to whom our Lord chooses defeats the purpose of saying the whole world, everyone, all men. It is like someone at work announcing, "I will give a free gift to the whole workplace", and then only give the gift to a few people of his choosing instead of what he announced. What do you think of someone who is deceptive in that manner?

And you have it wrong that our Lord Jesus Christ chooses who comes to Him. He said, "All those whom the Father gives me will come to me". And to clear it up, He also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me."

The prerequisite to coming to our Lord is that they hear what the Father says in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and learns from it of their condemned position and His salvation. This is why we preach the Gospel, for without hearing God's message of His Son how can they believe as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 10.


God Bless

The Word of God:

​

"Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice." (John 18:37)​

​

"I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me." (John 18:37)​

​

So, Joe, the ones hearing the Lord's voice are of the Lord.

Now, as to the ones not of the Lord:

​

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." (John 8:47)​

​

Do not be deceived, one must be in Christ to hear and understand the Word of God.

In your closing paragraph, you accurately wrote "The prerequisite to coming to our Lord is that they hear what the Father says in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and learns from it of their condemned position and His salvation", but all of that is entirely dependent upon the Sovereign Holy God.

Joe, you also wrote "you have it wrong that our Lord Jesus Christ chooses who comes to Him" as a response to a post that includes Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement and salvation). Your statement is anti-truth.

Intertwined inside of your statements of "And in His death, the free gift of being righteous before God came to all men" (about atonement) and "And the free gift that results to justification to eternal life is received by whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure.

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

Hear the Word of the Lord!

Do not be deceived, the word world is affected by context, so it's not deceptive to include exclusively the ones that God chooses to populate the Kingdom of God within the phrase the whole world as recorded by Holy Spirit inspired John in 1 John 2:2.

Now that I've addressed your question, I have a question for you concerning:

​

We know that no one who is born of God sins, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the evil one​

(1 John 5:18-19)​

​

Joe, do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[TibiasDad]

Joe, you also wrote "you have it wrong that our Lord Jesus Christ chooses who comes to Him" as a response to a post that includes Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement and salvation). Your statement is anti-truth.

You have been told before that this is specifically about being chosen to be part of the twelve. There are no soteriological meanings to Jesus’s words. It is bad hermeneutics to stretch the meaning of a quotation beyond the context of the text. It is a “Judas went and hung himself…go and do likewise” kind of hermeneutic.

“…God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9c)

Doug

PS It’s kind of hard to say God is willing “for all to come to repentance” and maintain that he predestined most to perish from eternity. What, did the Holy Spirit not have the intuition to specify “the elect” only when Peter said “any” and “all”? If he meant “God is not willing for any elect to perish but for all the elect to come to repentance” why didn’t he specify it?

Deal with the text itself! If it’s not in the text, don’t put it there!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Do not be deceived, the word world is affected by context, so it's not deceptive to include exclusively the ones that God chooses to populate the Kingdom of God within the phrase the whole world as recorded by Holy Spirit inspired John in 1 John 2:2.

The error of your judgment is in the word “exclusively”: it is not deceptive to include “the ones that God chooses”, but it is to say that”the ones that God chooses exclusively”, because that eliminates all outside of that group. It cannot mean the “whole world” of those God has chosen exclusively, for he says “and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world…” specifically making the “sin of the whole world” to refer to all who are not believers.

Doug

 

[Kermos]

The atonement doesn't provide faith. So lack of faith doesn't imply a failure of the atonement.

Otherwise people would already be forgiven when Christ died rather than living dead in sin for years before ever having faith as if a lacking or delayed atonement rather than a finished atonement.

Intertwined inside of your statements of "The atonement doesn't provide faith" (about atonement) and "So lack of faith doesn't imply a failure of the atonement." (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
(1 John 2:2)

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes atonement)
​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Studyman]

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

It is important, in my view, to consider ALL of the Christ's teaching in order to understand what HE wants us to understand.

Jesus Himself tells us who HE chooses.

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. "Every man" therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, "ye have no life in you". 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Paul understood this Spiritual Truth.

Acts 20: 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, "and" faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also taught the importance of repentance towards His Father.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

In this way we can prove ourselves, if we are chosen by the Christ to Save or not.

Remember, according to this same Jesus, there are "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that preach they they have been chosen by Christ to Save, but Jesus Himself said HE doesn't know them. And this because they did not show repentance towards God, choosing instead to continue in transgressing God's Judgment, commandments and Statutes, AKA, "Work iniquity)

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

But only those who are from the heart, repentant towards God, and who are Learned of the Father, and have eaten the Flesh of Christ and drank the Blood of Christ. Remember, not "everyone" who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

On the contrary, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement.

Christ's failure atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time because a person free-will chooses to Christ.

Man has the Free will to ignore the Christ's Words, or to believe them. He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." When a man seeks God's Word to live by, he finds that he is in transgression. Through God's Word, this man "learns", as Paul teaches, "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom. 12:1,2)

God sees the heart of this repentant man, who has become "Learned of the Father" and gives him to His Only Begotten Son, the Lord's Christ, for Saving. Jesus "chooses" to save all that the Father Gives Him, because HE came, not to do His own Will, but His Father's Will.

So it isn't a "Failure" on Christ's Part at all, according to all that is written.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!".

You are free to promote any philosophy you so desire, having been given the free will to do so by God. I disagree with this philosophy you are promoting, because it doesn't take into account ALL that Jesus taught concerning Atonement.

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

I would agree that every man who chooses repentance toward God, and humbles himself to be learned of the Father, will be given by Him to Christ for saving. And Christ doesn't lose even one of these men.

 

[civic]

You have been told before that this is specifically about being chosen to be part of the twelve. There are no soteriological meanings to Jesus’s words. It is bad hermeneutics to stretch the meaning of a quotation beyond the context of the text. It is a “Judas went and hung himself…go and do likewise” kind of hermeneutic.

“…God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9c)

Doug

PS It’s kind of hard to say God is willing “for all to come to repentance” and maintain that he predestined most to perish from eternity. What, did the Holy Spirit not have the intuition to specify “the elect” only when Peter said “any” and “all”? If he meant “God is not willing for any elect to perish but for all the elect to come to repentance” why didn’t he specify it?

Deal with the text itself! If it’s not in the text, don’t put it there!

Doug

Amen the context kills his theology. All he has is eisegesis

 

[Kermos]

It did not fail, it provides the means for all men to be saved if and when they believe. Jesus’s words in John 15 were specific to the calling of the 12 for their role as his disciples.

“The whole world”, means every person’s sins have been atoned for, but this doesn’t mean forgiveness is actuated- that requires confession and repentance. “If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us our sins…” and “repent for the forgiveness of sins..”! Atonement and forgiveness are separate phases in the salvation process. No one is saved until they confess, repent, and thereby show that they believe! “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins.”


Doug

Dear TibiasDad,

Look deeply at the word "atone" because two root words are visible (1) the word "at" (2) and the word "one", so the word atone means to be "at one", and to be at one with God is to be saved from the wrath of God.

Again, you intertwined "saved" with "atone" in such a way that your Free-willian Philosophy leaves people like Nancy of the world with sin atoned for by Christ while at the same time people like Nancy of the world are never saved from the wrath of God; therefore, you believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Look ar your words “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins - in the example, Nancy never believes before death, so all that remains of your statement is that unbeliever Nancy's sins are atoned by Christ while Nancy is in hell. See, you believe in Christ's failure atonement as per the original post.

Lord Jesus Christ is recorded speaking to all believers in all time in John chapter 15, and this includes the blessings of “I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and I appointed you that you would go and bear fruit” (John 15:15-16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement and salvation).

Unworthy as I am and incapable on my own (John 15:5), my Lord and my God Jesus Christ blessedly chose me to be His friend as well as to be in Him forever as well as to bear good fruit of the Holy Spirit now!

What about you, TibiasDad?

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Kampioen]

Intertwined inside of your statements of "The atonement doesn't provide faith" (about atonement) and "So lack of faith doesn't imply a failure of the atonement." (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
(1 John 2:2)

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes atonement)
​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

The atonement opens the door to the room. There is a place for everyone. The atonement is complete. But we must go in. The doorway is faith. But some seats stay empty. The atonement doesn't provide faith, so lack of it doesn't imply a failure of the atonement.

But you ask this because you didn't address my post.

Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too. But atoned doesn't necessarily mean already forgiven. **Otherwise we would be instantly forgiven when Christ died rather than wait dead in sin for years before getting saved.**

 

[TibiasDad]

Look deeply at the word "atone" because two root words are visible (1) the word "at" (2) and the word "one", so the word atone means to be "at one", and to be at one with God is to be saved from the wrath of God.

Thank you for the sophomoric lesson on hilasmos; or rather the English translation thereof. The problem with this approach is that it can also be split into “a” and “tone” meaning “a frequency of sound”.

To be at one is not the meaning of hilasmos, it is the result of hilasmos.
Hilasmos means ‘an act or offering that appeases an offended party’. It’s a noun, not a verb.

Again, you intertwined "saved" with "atone" in such a way that your Free-willian Philosophy leaves people like Nancy of the world with sin atoned for by Christ while at the same time people like Nancy of the world are never saved from the wrath of God; therefore, you believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Look ar your words “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins - in the example, Nancy never believes before death, so all that remains of your statement is that unbeliever Nancy's sins are atoned by Christ while Nancy is in hell. See, you believe in Christ's failure atonement as per the original post.

The purpose of the atonement was to reconcile the world to God, so that God can stop “counting people’s sins against them.” 2 Cor 5:19 This enables forgiveness to happen.

The atonement accomplished everything it was supposed to accomplish. Thus, “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins.


Doug