Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

It is important, in my view, to consider ALL of the Christ's teaching in order to understand what HE wants us to understand.

Jesus Himself tells us who HE chooses.

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. "Every man" therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, "ye have no life in you". 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Paul understood this Spiritual Truth.

Acts 20: 18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, 19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: 20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, "and" faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus also taught the importance of repentance towards His Father.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

In this way we can prove ourselves, if we are chosen by the Christ to Save or not.

Remember, according to this same Jesus, there are "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, that preach they they have been chosen by Christ to Save, but Jesus Himself said HE doesn't know them. And this because they did not show repentance towards God, choosing instead to continue in transgressing God's Judgment, commandments and Statutes, AKA, "Work iniquity)

The Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And, the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God the Holy Spirit exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward).

Are you saying evidence by way of fruit of the Holy Spirit with your "In this way we can prove ourselves, if we are chosen by the Christ to Save or not"?

Your last paragraph describes people like Nancy of the world (see the opening post of this thread).

But only those who are from the heart, repentant towards God, and who are Learned of the Father, and have eaten the Flesh of Christ and drank the Blood of Christ. Remember, not "everyone" who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That's all about salvation, but people like Nancy of the world never get to salvation.

Man has the Free will to ignore the Christ's Words, or to believe them. He said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." When a man seeks God's Word to live by, he finds that he is in transgression. Through God's Word, this man "learns", as Paul teaches, "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom. 12:1,2)

God sees the heart of this repentant man, who has become "Learned of the Father" and gives him to His Only Begotten Son, the Lord's Christ, for Saving. Jesus "chooses" to save all that the Father Gives Him, because HE came, not to do His own Will, but His Father's Will.

So it isn't a "Failure" on Christ's Part at all, according to all that is written.

Nowhere in Holy Scripture is it written "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words"; in Truth (John 14:6), image bearer of Christ will persons (Romans 8:29) are found referred to inside of "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4). You are gravely mistaken that free-will is in Matthew 4:4 because obedience as fruit of the Holy Spirit "Your souls having purified in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:22).

Did you know that the letter to Rome by Paul was written to believers in Christ as per Paul’s salutation of “to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:7.)?

Free-will does not make sense with Romans 12:2 nor Romans 12:1-2 because God alone transforms a human mind (think repentance) to think in a manner acceptable to God.

You are free to promote any philosophy you so desire, having been given the free will to do so by God. I disagree with this philosophy you are promoting, because it doesn't take into account ALL that Jesus taught concerning Atonement.

You are conflating salvation with atonement as shall be fully exposed in the next section. You are not understanding the full counsel of God.

I would agree that every man who chooses repentance toward God, and humbles himself to be learned of the Father, will be given by Him to Christ for saving. And Christ doesn't lose even one of these men.

Intertwined inside of your statements of "it doesn't take into account ALL that Jesus taught concerning Atonement" (about atonement) and "I would agree that every man who chooses repentance toward God" (about salvation, I don't know who you were agreeing with), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
(1 John 2:2)

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes atonement)
​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Studyman]

Nowhere in Holy Scripture is it written "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words";

I can see you are zealous for your adopted religious philosophy, and therefore, it would serve no purpose to try and explain with Scriptures, that there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other.

As for the popular religious philosophy of this world's religious system that you are promoting, that God didn't give men free will to "choose" righteousness over unrighteousness, here is the Word of God.

Duet. 30: 15 See, I (The Holy One of Israel, the Rock that followed them which was Christ) have "set before thee this day" life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest "love the LORD thy God", and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: "for he is thy life", and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

I have no doubt that in the Judgment, men will do the same as Adam did, by trying to blame God for their free will choices. It didn't work for Adam, and according to Scriptures, it won't work for the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord of my time, who chose not to believe God's Word, and then blame God for their choices.

It's good for men to have these discussions, in my view.

 

[Kermos]

Jesus never fails. I put my faith and trust in Him. And used my freewill to do it.

Your first sentence of "Jesus never fails" is absolutely true

Did Jesus atone promiscuously for the whole world, as in everybody everywhere in all time, without Christ's choice nor consent on an individual basis?

I believe Jesus atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

You say "I put my faith and trust in Him" which contrasts starkly against the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

There is no such thing as free-will, and a glaringly obvious result of Free-willian Philosophy is Christ's failure atonement as conveyed in the original post.

 

[TibiasDad]

You say "I put my faith and trust in Him" which contrasts starkly against the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

John 6:28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Verse 29 is an answer to the question of verse 28, which is essentially “what are the works God requires?” Jesus’s answer assumes this idea of ‘what’s required’ in the question, thus says “the work of God (required) is this: to believe in the one he has sent!”

The context is a series of questions from the crowds, of which this is one.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I believe Jesus atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God

There is no qualification regarding “every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God”, if for anything the qualification for “the whole world” would be the sins of all lost people in the “whole world”. That is the only possible meaning of this verse.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Did Jesus atone promiscuously for the whole world, as in everybody everywhere in all time, without Christ's choice nor consent on an individual basis?

1) I think “indiscriminately” is a better word for “promiscuously”. Saying Jesus was promiscuous isn’t positively reflective of him.

2) Your statement is confusing when you say Jesus atoned “without Christ’s choice”…. Christ chooses to “consent” to all who believe, and that is a potential for every single person.


Doug

 

[Kermos]

The atonement opens the door to the room. There is a place for everyone. The atonement is complete. But we must go in. The doorway is faith. But some seats stay empty. The atonement doesn't provide faith, so lack of it doesn't imply a failure of the atonement.

But you ask this because you didn't address my post.

Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too. But atoned doesn't necessarily mean already forgiven. **Otherwise we would be instantly forgiven when Christ died rather than wait dead in sin for years before getting saved.**

Kampioen, you wrote "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" which indicates that you believe Christ's atonement failed, so you believe in Christ's failure atonement. You believe Christ's payment in full (redemptive atonement) for the sin of the world is an insufficient payment because Christ atoned for people in hell.

Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul wrote "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10), so Christ died to make at one (atone, reconcile) the whole world with God, but your Free-willian Philosophy holds that Christ misses the mark for His rescue mission.

Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

A distinction between you and I is that you believe Christ's salvation always succeeds while Christ's atonement does fail, yet I believe Christ's salvation always succeeds while Christ's atonement always succeeds.

You also wrote "The atonement is complete. But we must go in. The doorway is faith", and here is the additional payment (more redemption) by you beyond Christ's payment in full (redemptive atonement) according to your Free-willian Philosophy because you believe that you free-will point your faith at Christ. The Christ of us Christians lovingly controls the "go in" (more appropriately "come in" but you see man-centric instead of Christ-centric) and the "faith" for “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Another distinction between you and I is that you believe man's free-will faith initiates Christ's promiscuous atonement, yet I believe the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) graciously works faith in Christ inside of us Christians at which we become aware of our former state as children of wrath now covered by the Blood of Christ (Christ's finished atonement) thus God mercifully saves us from the wrath of God!

Kampioen, I did not ask you anything in the post to which you responded (the post that addressed your post), so your "But you ask this because you didn't address my post" is anti-truth.

 

[civic]

Thank you for the sophomoric lesson on hilasmos; or rather the English translation thereof. The problem with this approach is that it can also be split into “a” and “tone” meaning “a frequency of sound”.

To be at one is not the meaning of hilasmos, it is the result of hilasmos.
Hilasmos means ‘an act or offering that appeases an offended party’. It’s a noun, not a verb.


The purpose of the atonement was to reconcile the world to God, so that God can stop “counting people’s sins against them.” 2 Cor 5:19 This enables forgiveness to happen.

The atonement accomplished everything it was supposed to accomplish. Thus, “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins.


Doug

ditto

 

[civic]

@Kermos

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice ( ἱλασμός ) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator -- propitiation.

In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

Its other use in the same book

1 John 4:10
And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.


Love covers all wrongs, but the wicked find motivation from hatred or spite toward others. In contrast, the righteous are motivated by love. Hatred seeks ways to cause trouble, but love looks for ways to forgive.

This same proverb is quoted in 1 Peter 4:8, “Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” In this context, the proverb emphasizes that love is expressed through forgiveness of sins.

The idea of love being associated with forgiveness is found frequently in Scripture. One important example is found in 1 John 4:10, “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” See also John 3:16 and 1 John 3:16. The work of Christ on the cross—the work of our forgiveness—was an act of divine love.

In our own personal relationships, we also show love in our forgiveness of others. One of love’s characteristics is that “it keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:5). Love has no list of how or how often it has been offended. Love forgives.

God was never angry at the Son and needed to be appeased. That’s a fallacy .

Expiation is the better translation of the Greek word. The same word in 1 John 2:2 is the same in 1 John 4:10 which declares it was Gods love, not anger.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

The context proves God did not need to be appeased by His anger/ wrath towards the Son. It was love not anger.

Next fallacy

The OP has been dismantled by Gods word.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?

Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:

“… Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the god’s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the god’s anger: they propitiate him.”(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)

Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about “God is love”?

Here are verses using “propitiation” (in the KJV):

“God presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of God’s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good — because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life — yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26, )

“This is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.” (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The whole world- everyone, all people- the atonement was for all, not exceptions.

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism)

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma should never cloud ones mind to the truth in Scripture.

he Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Kampioen]

Kampioen, you wrote "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" which indicates that you believe Christ's atonement failed, so you believe in Christ's failure atonement. You believe Christ's payment in full (redemptive atonement) for the sin of the world is an insufficient payment because Christ atoned for people in hell.

Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul wrote "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10), so Christ died to make at one (atone, reconcile) the whole world with God, but your Free-willian Philosophy holds that Christ misses the mark for His rescue mission.

Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

A distinction between you and I is that you believe Christ's salvation always succeeds while Christ's atonement does fail, yet I believe Christ's salvation always succeeds while Christ's atonement always succeeds.

You also wrote "The atonement is complete. But we must go in. The doorway is faith", and here is the additional payment (more redemption) by you beyond Christ's payment in full (redemptive atonement) according to your Free-willian Philosophy because you believe that you free-will point your faith at Christ. The Christ of us Christians lovingly controls the "go in" (more appropriately "come in" but you see man-centric instead of Christ-centric) and the "faith" for “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Another distinction between you and I is that you believe man's free-will faith initiates Christ's promiscuous atonement, yet I believe the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) graciously works faith in Christ inside of us Christians at which we become aware of our former state as children of wrath now covered by the Blood of Christ (Christ's finished atonement) thus God mercifully saves us from the wrath of God!

Kampioen, I did not ask you anything in the post to which you responded (the post that addressed your post), so your "But you ask this because you didn't address my post" is anti-truth.

God didn't fail in the atonement because God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell.

Faith is the exception to works since it is God's approved means for acceptance to the atonement.

 

[Kermos]

Thank you for the sophomoric lesson on hilasmos; or rather the English translation thereof. The problem with this approach is that it can also be split into “a” and “tone” meaning “a frequency of sound”.

So, for you, atone does not mean to be at one with God. So sad.

Christ says "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:20-21).

The sound of Christ's voice is beautiful!

To be at one is not the meaning of hilasmos, it is the result of hilasmos.
Hilasmos means ‘an act or offering that appeases an offended party’. It’s a noun, not a verb.

To be "at one" is a state of being, so "at one" (atone) is a noun.

Christ is an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party, God, for incapable man (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice on BibleHub.com).

The purpose of the atonement was to reconcile the world to God, so that God can stop “counting people’s sins against them.” 2 Cor 5:19 This enables forgiveness to happen.

The atonement accomplished everything it was supposed to accomplish. Thus, “Nancy” is able to be saved because of the atonement; “Nancy” is not saved until she believes in that atonement for her sins.

Doug

Do not forget, Nancy of hell never believes in Christ from her first thought to her last thought per the example in the opening post.

You shifted from atonement to salvation, again, and then you hinge atonement which applies to everyone everywhere in all time according to your Free-willian Philosophy upon people like Nancy, so you believe people like Nancy of hell are atoned by Christ resulting in in Christ's failure atonement.

I believe that Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

 

[civic]

God didn't fail in the atonement because God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell.

Faith is the exception to works since it is God's approved means for acceptance to the atonement.

Yes the atonement which is central to the gospel is received by faith. It applies to those who choose to believe its message and the Person who died for them. Jesus Christ the Savior of the world.

AMEN

 

[Kermos]

I can see you are zealous for your adopted religious philosophy, and therefore, it would serve no purpose to try and explain with Scriptures, that there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other.

As for the popular religious philosophy of this world's religious system that you are promoting, that God didn't give men free will to "choose" righteousness over unrighteousness, here is the Word of God.

Duet. 30: 15 See, I (The Holy One of Israel, the Rock that followed them which was Christ) have "set before thee this day" life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest "love the LORD thy God", and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: "for he is thy life", and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

I have no doubt that in the Judgment, men will do the same as Adam did, by trying to blame God for their free will choices. It didn't work for Adam, and according to Scriptures, it won't work for the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord of my time, who chose not to believe God's Word, and then blame God for their choices.

It's good for men to have these discussions, in my view.

You wrote "there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other", and this is what God has me here proclaiming, but you Free-willians believe that atonement exists without salvation because you believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

Studyman, Moses' words recorded in Deuteronomy 30:15-20 state not that "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words", so you pour out anti-truth.

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[TibiasDad]

To be "at one" is a state of being, so "at one" (atone) is a noun.

You need to take an English class! Atoning is an action, something someone does! To be “at one” is an intransitive verb (it used to be called an “state of being verb” when I was growing up) expressing what someone or something is.

The effect of Hilasmos is that we become “at one” with God. Hilasmos itself is the restorative act that appeases the wrath of God, which again, precedes and precipitates forgiveness which then makes us “at one” with God.


Doug

 

[civic]

You need to take an English class! Atoning is an action, something someone does! To be “at one” is an intransitive verb (it used to be called an “state of being verb” when I was growing up) expressing what someone or something is.

The effect of Hilasmos is that we become “at one” with God. Hilasmos itself is the restorative act that appeases the wrath of God, which again, precedes and precipitates forgiveness which then makes us “at one” with God.


Doug

Spot on brother

 

[TibiasDad]

Do not forget, Nancy of hell never believes in Christ from her first thought to her last thought per the example in the opening post.

But she could because of the atonement. Atonement doesn’t mean I will be saved, it means I can be saved!

You shifted from atonement to salvation, again, and then you hinge atonement which applies to everyone everywhere in all time according to your Free-willian Philosophy upon people like Nancy, so you believe people like Nancy of hell are atoned by Christ resulting in in Christ's failure atonement.

Atonement is not salvation, it is the means to being saved, it makes salvation possible but not complete.

I believe that Christ atones exclusively for the whole world (1 John 2:2) as in every specific individual that Christ chooses to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God (John 15:16 and John 15:19 and John 3:3), so Lord Jesus has a 100% success rate with His atonement - this is Christ's finished atonement.

And I believe and have demonstrated that scripture, properly exegeted, denies your conclusion. You are reading things into the text that cannot be drawn from it.

Doug

 

[Kermos]

God didn't fail in the atonement because God prefers libertarian free will over keeping people out of hell.

Faith is the exception to works since it is God's approved means for acceptance to the atonement.

You continue preaching that Christ failed as an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party, God, for incapable man (italicized portion is from Strong's Greek: 2434. ἱλασμός (hilasmos) -- Propitiation, Atoning Sacrifice on BibleHub.com) because you believe "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (italicized portion is from you as recorded in post #27).

You have nothing to reconcile your Free-willian Philosophy resulting in Christ's failure atonement, so your Free-willian Philosophy holds that Christ misses the mark for His rescue mission.

God has given me Holy Spirit inspired "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" (Romans 5:10), so Christ died to make at one (atone, reconcile) the whole world with God which includes exclusively God's selected persons for the Kingdom of God (John 3:3; John 15:16; John 15:19; 1 John 2:2).

There is no such thing as free-will, but there is such a thing as self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10). The only Way (John 14:6) to have faith in Christ is because of God's work inside of us children of God since the Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Believe Christ!

 

[Studyman]

You wrote "there is no Salvation without Atonement, because one doesn't exist without the other", and this is what God has me here proclaiming, but you Free-willians believe that atonement exists without salvation because you believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

First off, you are promoting falsehoods about what "I" believe and this because you do not actually read other peoples posts. You are here to "Proclaim" your personal religion, in spite of what is actually written. Which is fine, you have free will to adopt and promote any philosophy you choose. I pointed out to you who "Jesus Said", the Jesus "of the Bible" said, HE chooses to save, based on His Own Words. You continued as if the Word's of this Jesus didn't even exist, refusing to even acknowledge them.

I believe only those who are given to Jesus by His Father, those who are "learned of the Father", are saved. That is what my Posts have represented. Please, it is fine to disagree with someone, but it's a SIN to be a talebearer among the brethren.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

When a person cherry picks scriptures, in other words, if a person only listens to, believes or considers 1/3 of the message given to them, it is spiritually and literally impossible to understand the truth of the message. However, it is a required practice to engage in such cherry picking, when promoting philosophies that can not stand if all of the message is considered.

You have the free will ability to seek God's Truth, through living by Every Word of God, as Jesus did and instructs others to do, or you can choose instead to use Some of His inspired Word to justify one or more religious philosophies of this world's religious system that you have adopted.

I would recommend that you "Yield Yourself" to God in repentance, and follow the Christ, of the Bible's, instruction to Seek First the Righteousness of God, in Hope that HE gives you to Jesus for cleansing.

Studyman, Moses' words recorded in Deuteronomy 30:15-20 state not that "Man has the Free will" "to believe" "Christ's Words", so you pour out anti-truth.

Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore "that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father", cometh unto me.

Jesus also said: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Man has both the free will to "choose" to believe Christ's Words or "choose" to "Believe NOT" Christ's Words".

One leads to Life, the other Death, according to God's Inspired Words. Personally I have no reason to doubt Him.

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

Yes, the Word of God is Truth.

Deut. 30: 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, "I have set before thee" this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that "I command thee this day" to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 "But" "if thine heart turn away", so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, "that ye shall surely perish", and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose" life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.