Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

Nice diversion away from Romans 7 which was my previous comment. Now back to Romans 7 to correct your abuse of the passage

Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.


The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).


Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.


4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.


Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.


The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.


If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way.Schreiner

hope this helps !!!

I walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death (Romans 8:2); therefore, I am no longer burdened by sin. I walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) because Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (1 John 5:1).

You walk according to the flesh (Romans 8:4) by your own testimony that in your free-will your flesh, not being born of God, sets yourself free from sin by way of your flesh pleasing God (Romans 8:8); therefore, you are burdened by sin.

You misunderstood the conveyance.

Nothing you wrote changed the fact that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) including when I posted:

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 7:14-25-Romans 8:1-8)
​

@civic, see that we Christians walk according to the Holy Spirit of the Living God which means that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Your words indicate that you do not believe that Christ's love controls you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[civic]

I walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death (Romans 8:2); therefore, I am no longer burdened by sin. I walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) because Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (1 John 5:1).

You walk according to the flesh (Romans 8:4) by your own testimony that in your free-will your flesh, not being born of God, sets yourself free from sin by way of your flesh pleasing God (Romans 8:8); therefore, you are burdened by sin.

You misunderstood the conveyance.

Nothing you wrote changed the fact that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) including when I posted:

​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.​

​

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

​

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

(Romans 7:14-25-Romans 8:1-8)​

​

@civic, see that we Christians walk according to the Holy Spirit of the Living God which means that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Your words indicate that you do not believe that Christ's love controls you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

Projecting as your doctrine is manmade and according to the flesh of Calvinism .

Next fallacy

 

[Kermos]

The atonement particularly effectively forgives only those foreknown to libertarianly believe, but universally brings all to the point of decision concerning it.

Nancy failed to get atoned because she failed to libertarianly believe, not because the atonement forgave her and she didn't.

You wrote "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) by which you refute yourself. You believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Since Lord and God Jesus Christ knows all things, even events before the events occur, then only those events foreknown by God come to pass without deviation; therefore, man can do nothing good apart from Christ for the Word of God declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). You believe you do good apart from Christ.

Even belief in Christ is governed by God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so your "libertarianly believe" is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

 

[civic]

You wrote "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) by which you refute yourself. You believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Since Lord and God Jesus Christ knows all things, even events before the events occur, then only those events foreknown by God come to pass without deviation; therefore, man can do nothing good apart from Christ for the Word of God declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). You believe you do good apart from Christ.

Even belief in Christ is governed by God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so your "libertarianly believe" is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

more misuse and abuse of scripture ripped from its biblical narrative- thats all you have are isolated snippets ( eisegesis )to base your man made theology that came from augustine to calvin. its like rolling the dice to see what sticks. just random passages removed from their intended context and given a meaning by you never intended by the writers of scripture or God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Kermos]

Projecting as your doctrine is manmade and according to the flesh of Calvinism .

Next fallacy

You have nothing Scriptural to say; in other words, your words are springs without water and mists driven by a storm (2 Peter 2:17).

Your free-will is speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires (2 Peter 2:18), and you free-willians are among them who are promising them freedom while slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved (2 Peter 2:19).

The Apostle Paul as quoted in the post to which you replied echoes this same principle as the Apostle Peter in the last two verses of Romans 7:14-25-Romans 8:1-8, specifically the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God..

@civic, see that we Christians walk according to the Holy Spirit of the Living God which means that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Your words indicate that you do not believe that Christ's love controls you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

 

[civic]

You have nothing Scriptural to say; in other words, your words are springs without water and mists driven by a storm (2 Peter 2:17).

Your free-will is speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires (2 Peter 2:18), and you free-willians are among them who are promising them freedom while slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved (2 Peter 2:19).

The Apostle Paul as quoted in the post to which you replied echoes this same principle as the Apostle Peter in the last two verses of Romans 7:14-25-Romans 8:1-8, specifically the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God..

@civic, see that we Christians walk according to the Holy Spirit of the Living God which means that Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Your words indicate that you do not believe that Christ's love controls you.

You still have people like Nancy of the world who died and goes to hell being atoned for by Christ, so you cling to Christ's failure atonement (see the opening post).

Gods love does control me but it didn’t control Calvin and you espouse the same terrible ungodly and unloving doctrines.

 

[Kermos]

more misuse and abuse of scripture ripped from its biblical narrative- thats all you have are isolated snippets ( eisegesis )to base your man made theology that came from augustine to calvin. its like rolling the dice to see what sticks. just random passages removed from their intended context and given a meaning by you never intended by the writers of scripture or God.

hope this helps !!!

Behold, a mere man's thoughts quoted above without a quotation of the glorious Word of God to dispell the error of your free-willian philosophy and Kampioen's error of "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) which clearly shows you believe in Christ's failure atonement based on your faulty free-willian interpretation that the whole world means everyone everywhere in all time inside of "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

We followers of the wonderful Way (John 14:6) know the whole world means exclusively the chosen ones for the Kingdom of God by King Jesus Christ inside of "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), and this is Christ's finished atonement!

 

[civic]

Behold, a mere man's thoughts quoted above without a quotation of the glorious Word of God to dispell the error of your free-willian philosophy and Kampioen's error of "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) which clearly shows you believe in Christ's failure atonement based on your faulty free-willian interpretation that the whole world means everyone everywhere in all time inside of "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

We followers of the wonderful Way (John 14:6) know the whole world means exclusively the chosen ones for the Kingdom of God by King Jesus Christ inside of "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2), and this is Christ's finished atonement!

You reject Gods inspired word so why quote it , just like you just denied 1 John 2:2.

 

[Kampioen]

You wrote "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) by which you refute yourself. You believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Since Lord and God Jesus Christ knows all things, even events before the events occur, then only those events foreknown by God come to pass without deviation; therefore, man can do nothing good apart from Christ for the Word of God declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). You believe you do good apart from Christ.

Even belief in Christ is governed by God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so your "libertarianly believe" is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The work of God is the work God wants us to do, not God doing it instead of us.

But you have God as a failure because you say God meticulously controls all things yet you contradict by saying man conjured the idea of libertarian faith on his own.

 

[Kermos]

Gods love does control me but it didn’t control Calvin and you espouse the same terrible ungodly and unloving doctrines.

If you believe in the Son of God whom the Holy Father in Heaven has sent, then Christ's love controls you. Also, your free-willian philosophy fades away into oblivion, and the loving presence of Christ reigns in your heart.

Christ's love controls me to write this sure foundation in which I am graciously held by my Lord and God Jesus Christ! Here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ hear the Word of God by being of Christ, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice” (John 18:37)
   AND Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth for the Word of God is “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me” (John 14:6)
   AND Christ contrasts hearing ability of the Godly against the ungodly with “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God” (John 8:47)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 18:37 state that God exclusively causes man to hear God
6. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
7. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the exclusive Way with absolute Truth in everlasting Life (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

 

[civic]

If you believe in the Son of God whom the Holy Father in Heaven has sent, then Christ's love controls you. Also, your free-willian philosophy fades away into oblivion, and the loving presence of Christ reigns in your heart.

Christ's love controls me to write this sure foundation in which I am graciously held by my Lord and God Jesus Christ! Here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ hear the Word of God by being of Christ, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice” (John 18:37)
   AND Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth for the Word of God is “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me” (John 14:6)
   AND Christ contrasts hearing ability of the Godly against the ungodly with “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God” (John 8:47)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 18:37 state that God exclusively causes man to hear God
6. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
7. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the exclusive Way with absolute Truth in everlasting Life (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

calvinism is unloving as you have demonstrated. if you are not one of the chosen frozen you are out of luck- no winning ticket, created for hell for all eternity.

 

[Kermos]

You reject Gods inspired word so why quote it , just like you just denied 1 John 2:2.

Show me where I denied "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2). You can't because I haven't.

 

[civic]

Show me where I denied "He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" (1 John 2:2). You can't because I haven't.

do you believe Jesus atones for the sins of everyone, the entire world, the whole world ? yes or no

now watch you dodge the question .

 

[Kermos]

calvinism is unloving as you have demonstrated. if you are not one of the chosen frozen you are out of luck- no winning ticket, created for hell for all eternity.

Free-willian Philosophy is unloving as you have demonstrated. God creates people and off those creatures created by God go to hell - in fact your philosophy holds that "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27) which means Christ's atonement FAILED according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

All of the loving Word of God quoted to you, but you just throw it aside even calling the Word of God your "calvinism" instead of Christian.

You insultingly wrote "chosen frozen" in contrast to "vessels" which God's vessel of mercy Apostle Paul wrote:

​

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

​

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory​

(Romans 9:18-23)​

​

So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory - even sending me here to this site!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault because if you are not one of the chosen frozen you are out of luck- no winning ticket, created for hell for all eternity.? For who among chosen frozen resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

​

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)​

​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, civic.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

You free-willian philosophers project that Christ's atonement depends on the man who wills, and you free-willians believe God's merciful atonement fails for people like Nancy (see the original post).

 

[Obadiah]

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

On the contrary, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement.

Christ's failure atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time because a person free-will chooses to Christ.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!".

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Jesus never fails. He made atonement for whosoever would believe in Him.

The jailer, greatly concerned, approached the two, falling before them and pleading, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul and Silas replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …”
Acts 16:30-31

 

[Kermos]

do you believe Jesus atones for the sins of everyone, the entire world, the whole world ? yes or no

now watch you dodge the question .

Yes, specifically everyone who is or will be in the Kingdom of God according to God's loving placement, the entire world being the world to come called the new Earth, the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world for He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

This is Christ's finished atonement.

Yet, you free-willians believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to your Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Whoops, you really need to watch out for making false prophecy such as your "now watch you dodge the question".

 

[civic]

Yes, specifically everyone who is or will be in the Kingdom of God according to God's loving placement, the entire world being the world to come called the new Earth, the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world for He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

This is Christ's finished atonement.

Yet, you free-willians believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to your Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Whoops, you really need to watch out for making false prophecy such as your "now watch you dodge the question".

you just contradicted yourself by answering yes since you limit the atonement.

next fallcy

 

[Kermos]

Jesus never fails. He made atonement for whosoever would believe in Him.

The jailer, greatly concerned, approached the two, falling before them and pleading, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul and Silas replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …”
Acts 16:30-31

Intertwined inside of your statements of "He made atonement for" (about atonement) and "whosoever would believe in Him" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure for people like "Nancy of the world".

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world​

(1 John 2:2)​

​

you did not choose Me, but I chose you​

(John 15:16)​

​

I chose you out of the world​

(John 15:19, includes atonement)​

​

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

In Christ,
Kermos

 

[Kermos]

The work of God is the work God wants us to do, not God doing it instead of us.

But you have God as a failure because you say God meticulously controls all things yet you contradict by saying man conjured the idea of libertarian faith on his own.

Your free-willian philosophy saying of "The work of God is the work God wants us to do" fails to match the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29). The Word of God is Life (John 14:6), but your word is death.

You have conjured up that I have God as a failure because you say God meticulously controls all things yet you contradict by saying man conjured the idea of libertarian faith on his own just like you have conjured up the concept of free-will which is the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

You better go back to the post to which you replied and look for "man can do nothing good" to find out my belief given to me by the Lord God Almighty.

You believe "Yes Christ atoned for people in hell too" (proof post #27), so you believe in Christ's failure atonement.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
(1 John 2:2)

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)

I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes atonement)
​

So I believe in Christ's finished atonement!

 

[Kermos]

TibiasDad, your free-willian fallacy falls apart as shown in the following to which you are incapable of proving false.

Men with wills are not inanimate objects like cars. Cars are subject to the will of the driver. If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless. The car itself never acts independently so as to be responsible.

Your application of the difference between the car and the tow truck and the correspondences of “the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God” is gratuitous and self-stultifying.

Doug

Neither are "Men with wills are not inanimate objects like" the soil, yet the Word of God gave the parable of the Sower sowing seed on the soil which the soil is analogous with men (Matthew 13:3-9; Matthew 13:18-23).

A tow truck can be used when a person relocates to a new home in a different state, so the person takes a plane to the new home meanwhile hires a trucking company to bring the car. Your "If a tow truck is needed, it is because the/a driver was reckless" "is gratuitous and self-stultifying".

The Car and Truck Analogy is a parable of sorts because it has a Heavenly message about Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

You hold to free-will which is not really free-will but self-will.