Christians are not under the OT Law
- Thread starter civic
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Christians are commanded to do many things after salvation.
Truther
Well-known member
What if they don’t obey these commands? Will they be lost?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Ti 3:15–17.
Although I agree with civic that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) were never under the Mosaic Law for the Mosaic Law was given to the Hebrews/Jews whom God delivered from the bondage of the Egyptians as prophesied to Abraham.
I also agree that Saul's personal letter to Timothy is written to him who was a non-Hebrew (Gentile), however, Saul makes the statement to Timothy that the Hebrew Scripture which is in view here in verse 16 ("all Scripture...") makes the case that a Gentile Christian whom we all take Timothy was Gentile is still coming across that Gentiles are bound in their Christian new life to obedience to the Hebrew Scripture unless we want to take Timothy to actually be (Hellenized) Hebrew/Jew and as a Jew he is still under the Law as a Christ-follower, which all Jewish Christians are after being born again and converted to a spiritual existence of which the Law is itself a spiritual entity for Jews that became born again continued to be observant and obedient to the Law as it reveals here:
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.
Jews that became born again continued to be obedient to their Mosaic Law after they came to Christ. To them the arrival of their Promised Messiah or "Prophet like unto me (Moses)" (Deut. 18:15, 18) was the completion of their Judaism as Christ/Messiah was fulfillment of their Law and prophecies. Even Saul continued to be obedient to the Law as a born-again Christian. Below it was suggested that Saul join himself to these four men who make a (Nazarene) vow by shaving their heads for a particular purpose and Saul did join them in their vow and it was also mentioned that Saul was indeed STILL an obedient Jew who kept the Law as a born-again Christian. All born-again Jews continued to be obedient to their Law. It was a natural transition.
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
The children of Israel were given the Law by God form they would know how to worship God and also live among themselves under God's Law which instructed and commanded them in the ways God wanted them to live and breathe and have their being as God's people. The Ceremonial Law instructed the children of Israel in how they were to worship God. The Moral Law (Ten Commandments) first four commands teach how to worship and treat God and the other six instructed the children of Israel in how they were to act and behave towards each other. The Social Law gave instruction in other matters concerning how the twelve tribes were to behave towards each other.
And I believe that the Mosaic Law given to the children of Israel are binding up both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who become born again as what Saul says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 indicates.
Looking back upon 1900 years of theological history of the Bible we learn that the Law could not ever save us by anyone being obedient to the Law for the Law's purpose was to show the high standards of men before God in order to stand before God blameless and without sin. The letter of the Law kills. The Law is spiritual. It killed because men were natural flesh and the Law's effect upon all flesh killed all flesh due to this fact. But once a person becomes born again, they become spiritually alive and the Law's effect upon flesh could not touch them. But Saul instructs born again Christians that we receive instruction before God in how we are to order our lives and that is to be obedient to the Law of God. As spiritual people the spiritual effect upon us is NOW to be valued because it instructs us in righteousness and in how we are to live our lives, that is, to be obedient to God's Law no matter if one is Hebrew/Jewish or Gentile. It is now used for instruction in righteousness (righteous living.) And that is what Saul says to Timothy specifically and to every born-again Christian - Jew and Gentile - in general.
And that should be the bottom line in this discussion and kill any dissent.
In Acts 21:20 I ask WHY were these thousands of Jews who became born again were zealous of the Law? Why? If the Gentile teaching in the body of believers is that the Law was made "abolished" or "obsolete" why were Jewish Christians after being born again become "zealous of the Law"? The Holy Spirit didn't stop them. There is nothing in Scripture that says they were wrong to continue to practice and being obedient to their Law. Why were they zealous of the Law? Jew or Gentile - didn't you become more obedient to human laws after you became Christian?
I know the answer.
Do you?
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Ti 3:15–17.
Although I agree with civic that non-Hebrews (Gentiles) were never under the Mosaic Law for the Mosaic Law was given to the Hebrews/Jews whom God delivered from the bondage of the Egyptians as prophesied to Abraham.
I also agree that Saul's personal letter to Timothy is written to him who was a non-Hebrew (Gentile), however, Saul makes the statement to Timothy that the Hebrew Scripture which is in view here in verse 16 ("all Scripture...") makes the case that a Gentile Christian whom we all take Timothy was Gentile is still coming across that Gentiles are bound in their Christian new life to obedience to the Hebrew Scripture unless we want to take Timothy to actually be (Hellenized) Hebrew/Jew and as a Jew he is still under the Law as a Christ-follower, which all Jewish Christians are after being born again and converted to a spiritual existence of which the Law is itself a spiritual entity for Jews that became born again continued to be observant and obedient to the Law as it reveals here:
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.
Jews that became born again continued to be obedient to their Mosaic Law after they came to Christ. To them the arrival of their Promised Messiah or "Prophet like unto me (Moses)" (Deut. 18:15, 18) was the completion of their Judaism as Christ/Messiah was fulfillment of their Law and prophecies. Even Saul continued to be obedient to the Law as a born-again Christian. Below it was suggested that Saul join himself to these four men who make a (Nazarene) vow by shaving their heads for a particular purpose and Saul did join them in their vow and it was also mentioned that Saul was indeed STILL an obedient Jew who kept the Law as a born-again Christian. All born-again Jews continued to be obedient to their Law. It was a natural transition.
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
The children of Israel were given the Law by God form they would know how to worship God and also live among themselves under God's Law which instructed and commanded them in the ways God wanted them to live and breathe and have their being as God's people. The Ceremonial Law instructed the children of Israel in how they were to worship God. The Moral Law (Ten Commandments) first four commands teach how to worship and treat God and the other six instructed the children of Israel in how they were to act and behave towards each other. The Social Law gave instruction in other matters concerning how the twelve tribes were to behave towards each other.
And I believe that the Mosaic Law given to the children of Israel are binding up both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who become born again as what Saul says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 indicates.
Looking back upon 1900 years of theological history of the Bible we learn that the Law could not ever save us by anyone being obedient to the Law for the Law's purpose was to show the high standards of men before God in order to stand before God blameless and without sin. The letter of the Law kills. The Law is spiritual. It killed because men were natural flesh and the Law's effect upon all flesh killed all flesh due to this fact. But once a person becomes born again, they become spiritually alive and the Law's effect upon flesh could not touch them. But Saul instructs born again Christians that we receive instruction before God in how we are to order our lives and that is to be obedient to the Law of God. As spiritual people the spiritual effect upon us is NOW to be valued because it instructs us in righteousness and in how we are to live our lives, that is, to be obedient to God's Law no matter if one is Hebrew/Jewish or Gentile. It is now used for instruction in righteousness (righteous living.) And that is what Saul says to Timothy specifically and to every born-again Christian - Jew and Gentile - in general.
And that should be the bottom line in this discussion and kill any dissent.
In Acts 21:20 I ask WHY were these thousands of Jews who became born again were zealous of the Law? Why? If the Gentile teaching in the body of believers is that the Law was made "abolished" or "obsolete" why were Jewish Christians after being born again become "zealous of the Law"? The Holy Spirit didn't stop them. There is nothing in Scripture that says they were wrong to continue to practice and being obedient to their Law. Why were they zealous of the Law? Jew or Gentile - didn't you become more obedient to human laws after you became Christian?
I know the answer.
Do you?
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Truther
Well-known member
The Gentiles have always been under the Law from birth....
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We don't have a built in morality aside from the Law.
Only the Acts 2;38 obeying saints are made free from the Law.
They follow the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
They are led of the Spirit...
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
We don't have a built in morality aside from the Law.
Only the Acts 2;38 obeying saints are made free from the Law.
They follow the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ.
They are led of the Spirit...
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I agree with one caveat. The purpose of the law was to show Israel, to whom it was given, what sin was - that is, to define sin. Paul said that himself in the verse you referred to - Romans 7:7 "I would not have come to know sin except through the law; for I would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet'".
Galatians 3:19 says essentially the same thing: "... the Law was added because of (or for the sake of defining) transgressions".
So the law was not given to the Jews to show them that they were unable to keep it. On the contrary, the scripture gives us examples of persons who kept it blamelessly. Zacharias and Elizabeth, John the Baptist's parents "walked blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord". Luke 1:5-6
Even Paul said about himself in Phil. 1:6 " ... as to the righteousness which is in the law, found blameless."
Remember, keeping the Law blamelessly did not mean that a person never sinned. Rather it meant that whenever he did sin, he would make the appropriate animal sacrifice to cover that sin - or meet whatever requirement God said to cover that sin. So, there's no doubt that many godly people kept the Law meticulously, but Christ's death on the cross was the payment necessary for sinner's to be forgiven and cleansed through faith, both before His crucifixion and after. That's how Abraham was credited as righteous, David was credited as righteous - Psalm 32:1. That's how all the godly men in the Old Testament, were credited as righteous - by grace through faith - the same as today.
God would be quite unreasonable to command Israel to obey His Law, if He knew that they were unable to. The Law, however, was powerless in taking away sins. Only Jesus can do that.
By the way, this is also how we are able to keep Jesus' commandments, by grace through faith. When we sin, we go to 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all righteousness."
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