Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Doug Brents]

You are contradicting God. You are essentially saying that God condones sinning which is a dangerous and destructive heresy.

Does God not have the authority to make His Law whatever He wants it to be?
Murder is condemned, yet He commanded Israel to kill every man, woman, and child (many of the men, all the women and all the children being non-combatants) when they invaded the Land. Certainly killing soldiers in war is not murder, but killing women and children (non-combatants) would be. Yet GOD COMMANDED IT ANYWAY. Don't tell me He does not make exceptions to His commands; He certainly has the authority to do so.

No one ever bowed down to Jesus and said "My Lord and my God!" in the Bible.

Thomas did (John 20:28).

And no it is not blasphemy to refer to humans as god in the Bible.

John 10
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

That is "gods" not "God", the Most High. We (believers in Jesus) are "sons of the Most High", but we are not the Creator God. To call someone "God" is blasphemy. And to accept being called "God" is blasphemy.

 

[Runningman]

Does God not have the authority to make His Law whatever He wants it to be?
Murder is condemned, yet He commanded Israel to kill every man, woman, and child (many of the men, all the women and all the children being non-combatants) when they invaded the Land. Certainly killing soldiers in war is not murder, but killing women and children (non-combatants) would be. Yet GOD COMMANDED IT ANYWAY. Don't tell me He does not make exceptions to His commands; He certainly has the authority to do so.

Because there is a difference between worshipping someone as God and as a god. People bowed to just in reverence, yes it can mean worship, but not as God.

Thomas did (John 20:28).

John 20:28 is what I am quoting. There is no mention of bowing there.

That is "gods" not "God", the Most High. We (believers in Jesus) are "sons of the Most High", but we are not the Creator God. To call someone "God" is blasphemy. And to accept being called "God" is blasphemy.

Capitalization is a translators preference. People are called elohim in the Bible and so is God. There is a big difference depending on context.

 

[Alter2Ego]

FreeInChrist:

None of the scriptures you listed above indicate, to quote you: "Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God."

Let's begin with Matthew 28:19.

If the mentioning of three entities in the same verse of scripture at Matthew 28:19 = they are the same god, does the mentioning of (1) FreeInChrist, (2) the biological father of FreeInChrist, and (3) a possession of FreeInChrist's biological father = all three are the same human being?


The scripture at John 1:1 starts off as follows: "In the beginning was the Word , . . . " According to the first independent clause of John 1:1, the spirit person referred to as "the Word" aka Jesus Christ had a beginning. Scripture at Psalm 90:2 says Almighty God does not have a beginning.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

Psalm 90 NIV

Acts 5:3-4 since Jehovah owns the holy spirit, when we sin against God's holy spirit, by extension, we are sinning against God.

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2 -- English Standard Version)

Genesis 1 ESV

@Alter2Ego ,

Don't you worry your little head about what I posted.

It comes from the parallel universe I live in. The one where my signature came from.

Have a great day.

Don't flatter yourself, FreeInChrist.

Lying for Trinity is one thing. That's what all Trinitarians are good at. But lying to yourself that I'm worried your cherry-picked verses are proof of Christendom's 3-prong god is taking it a bit too far.

Context (surround words, verses, and chapter) debunks every single "trinity" verse that Trinitarians have posted at these types of websites. I've seen just about every out-of-context verse they've used over the years.

 

[Rockerduck]

Don't flatter yourself, FreeInChrist.

Lying for Trinity is one thing. That's what all Trinitarians are good at. But lying to yourself that I'm worried your cherry-picked verses are proof of Christendom's 3-prong god is taking it a bit too far.

Context (surround words, verses, and chapter) debunks every single "trinity" verse that Trinitarians have posted at these types of websites. I've seen just about every out-of-context verse they've used over the years.

I stand on solid ground the Holy Spirit is in me, Jesus is my Savior, and God is my Father. All three agree together.

 

[Peterlag]

The only reason for it is because that is what God says about Himself in His written Word. You can debate until you are blue in the face, but when John 1:1 says that the Word was God, and John 1:14 and following says that the Word became flesh in the man we know as Jesus, there can be no other conclusion than that Jesus is God. And argument against that is argument against God, and He will always win.

Quit fighting against the Truth, against God, against who Jesus says He is.

I already gave you another conclusion so you can't say there can be no other conclusion. Here I will post it again...

The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag,

“You’re quoting verses that prove there is only ONE God ~ "I" agree.
But that’s exactly the problem for your position.
Because that same ONE God says He alone is Creator, Savior, and First and Last…
yet the New Testament applies every one of those to Jesus.
So either Scripture contradicts itself, or Jesus shares the identity of the one God~ not a separate god.”

Follow along if you want....

Those verses (Isaiah 44–45, Hosea 13:4) teach there is only ONE God and there is no other God besides Him

You will get no argument from me..... but If only ONE God exists, then how do you explain:
Jesus being called God? , The Spirit doing what only God does? , Multiple persons speaking as God?


If you are going to argue these never happened you would be wrong, but an in-depth study is not what this is about.

So, YHWH says He alone created everything...right?​

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

What about

John 1:3 "All things came into being through Him,[the Word] and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 " For by Him [Christ] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

So who created?

YHWH alone
Jesus

Conclusion: Jesus is not “another god”—He shares the SAME divine identity.

YHWH says He is the ONLY Savior.​

Isaiah 43:11 "“I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me."

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

Then how is it we have.......

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


So who is Savior?

YHWH alone
Jesus

You don’t get two Saviors in a strict monotheism.

YHWH = First and Last​

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Same title. Same identity.

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

 

[Runningman]

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Yeah. They don't like anything between John 1:1 and verse 14. As you said, it is indeed a thing as John explicitly said in verse 5 as well: "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

There is also verse 9 which places the coming of True Light into the world after Jesus was already 30 years old:

John 1
9The true Light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

John was a Jew, his audience were Jews, they all were Jewish and understood that Logos is not a person. Words are not a person, but they can be personified. John also directly calls the Word a thing elsewhere (1 John 1:1-3), infers the True Light isn't Jesus, but rather the Logos and Light are things Jesus had and gave to others. It isn't hard to figured out what Jesus had for us, but trinitarians really struggle with this. The Logos that Jesus revealed is eternal life and it is something God granted Jesus authority to do:

John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah. They don't like anything between John 1:1 and verse 14. As you said, it is indeed a thing as John explicitly said in verse 5 as well: "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

There is also verse 9 which places the coming of True Light into the world after Jesus was already 30 years old:

John 1
9The true Light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

John was a Jew, his audience were Jews, they all were Jewish and understood that Logos is not a person. Words are not a person, but they can be personified. John also directly calls the Word a thing elsewhere (1 John 1:1-3), infers the True Light isn't Jesus, but rather the Logos and Light are things Jesus had and gave to others. It isn't hard to figured out what Jesus had for us, but trinitarians really struggle with this. The Logos that Jesus revealed is eternal life and it is something God granted Jesus authority to do:

John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

Yes... you sure are correct that John was an Apostle for the Lord Jesus Christ who indeed wrote to a culture that understood the word logos.

 

[Peterlag]

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible. This should be all the evidence any normal person would need to understand that the Trinity is not Biblical.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible. This should be all the evidence any normal person would need to understand that the Trinity is not Biblical.

Right. It is not taught in the book that is not .

 

[Runningman]

The Doctrine of the Trinity is not taught anywhere in the Bible. This should be all the evidence any normal person would need to understand that the Trinity is not Biblical.

Applying your statement consistently to Catholicism and Protestantism eliminates many more of their core doctrines. The trinity is just the biggest one most of them need to get past. The Trinity isn't the real issue, it's just a symptom.

 

[Peterlag]

Right. It is not taught in the book that is not .

What you call a teaching is not a teaching. They are bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.

 

[FreeInChrist]

What you call a teaching is not a teaching. They are bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.

It is still not taught in the book that is not.... BTW... I do not teach. I merely report and it is up to the reader to see the truth or lack there of.

 

[Peterlag]

It is still not taught in the book that is not.... BTW... I do not teach. I merely report and it is up to the reader to see the truth or lack there of.

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[FreeInChrist]

A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Why? You keep insisting it is not in the bible..... SO????????????????

You call the book we are discussing the Bible. There is not such word in the book we are discussing.

I call the trio so often mentioned together in the book we are discussing.... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit..... = Trinity.

SO???????????

No bible in the bible........ No trio called Trinity in the book we are discussing.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT.....

You can cherry pick all you want to prove your point. You have failed.

 

[Peterlag]

Why? You keep insisting it is not in the bible..... SO????????????????

You call the book we are discussing the Bible. There is not such word in the book we are discussing.

I call the trio so often mentioned together in the book we are discussing.... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit..... = Trinity.

SO???????????

No bible in the bible........ No trio called Trinity in the book we are discussing.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT.....

You can cherry pick all you want to prove your point. You have failed.

I'm not cherry picking. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Not one verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
Not one verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
Not one verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
Not one verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
Not one verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
Not one verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

 

[Peterlag]

"And the word came to humanity and dwelt in us..."

John 1:14 (The Compatible Translation)

YHWH’s word came to humanity through Jesus. His Prime Directive was

to have His word dwell in believers to transform them.

 

[Peterlag]

Okay let's get some straight answers. Did part of Jesus die?

Don't tell me the man part died because that's still part of God and if not then there's 4 that make up God. The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible. The idea that God can limit what He is or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture. They would have one life if Jesus and God are the same “one God.” The Bible never says anything like or even hints that Jesus had two lives in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

 

[amazing grace]

Okay let's get some straight answers. Did part of Jesus die?

Don't tell me the man part died because that's still part of God and if not then there's 4 that make up God. The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible. The idea that God can limit what He is or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture. They would have one life if Jesus and God are the same “one God.” The Bible never says anything like or even hints that Jesus had two lives in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

Eric Chang gave the above as an example from his book : The Only True God: A Study of Biblical Monotheism when he was speaking of the Trinitarian use of double-talk. I posted an excerpt from his book on the thread The Trinity and it's supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning.

Here's what he said in regard to Jesus dying. "Let us take one fundamentally important point as an example. One thing which is stated with great frequency about Jesus is the fact of his atoning death. But if Jesus is God, he cannot die; if he can die, he is not God; for one fundamental truth about God in the Bible is that He is eternal, everlasting, and immortal (Dt. 33:27; Ps. 90:2, etc.); there is absolutely no question about this where the Bible is concerned. Paul speaks of God as the One "who alone has immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16). Everything else will pass away, but God abides forever, His "years have no end" (Ps. 102: 25-27).
So trinitarianism is face with the question: how can Jesus did and yet be God? To this there is no other answer than to say: Jesus died as man, but not as God. This is the inevitable double-talk. What then about the trinitarian creed as stated at Chalcedon: "One Christ in two nature (notice how God is spoken of in terms of "nature") united in one person ... without division, without separation"? Obviously, this dogma is simply impossible to sustain in the light of the Biblical revelation of God."
(The Only True God: A Study of Biblical Monotheism, pg. 80)

[Author Eric Chang ---- First as a divinity student and later as a pastor, Chang had been a staunch trinitarian for several decades, having done much to promote trinitarianism in his teaching and preaching. But around 2005, through a restudy of the Bible, he began to question his own trinitarian perspective on things such as the deity of Christ, concluding that it is not supported by the biblical data.]

 

[synergy]

"And the word came to humanity and dwelt in us..."

John 1:14 (The Compatible Translation)

YHWH’s word came to humanity through Jesus. His Prime Directive was

to have His word dwell in believers to transform them.

Now I see from which anti-Greek text you get your wacky ideas from. This is the proper translation:

(John 1:14) Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ Πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

(John 1:14) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and of truth