Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[praise_yeshua]

She would tell you that she is here to do the will of God.

Wouldn't her boss speak to that. Why are you trying to be her boss?

Most people don't really believe what they say they believe. When I confront them with the obvious ramifications of what their beliefs equal, they don't like it. If you're going to appeal to a boss. Then we really don't have anything to talk about. I want to talk to the boss.

That is your religion. But I believe HE had a will like all humans, he denied His will to be a "doer" of His Father's will. That is the whole point, in my understanding.

The will of humans vary. You have human wills that obey. You have human wills that do not obey. It all revolves around knowledge. The will can't be what it doesn't understand.

So long PY.

Your choice. I haven't blocked you and don't plan on it. I have no animosity at all toward you. I'm just not going to tolerate what you have to say about Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Another thing about that verse in the Psalm. As we know the Psalms are poetry and were songs. So the "literalists" conflate the type of passage it is with its intent. There is historical, poetic, wisdom, prophetic, apocalyptic, epistles, parables, narrative, law etc....... So thats the first mistake made by most when Jesus was quoting that verse.

For the heck of it I even inquired with AI.

Interpreting the Psalms as poetry and song requires engaging with their emotional, artistic, and musical nature rather than treating them as prose, by focusing on parallelism, imagery, and their function as expressions of faith. Key methods include identifying structural patterns like parallelism, using "metaphorical language" to feel the author's emotions, and understanding them as a collection of songs/prayers.

Agreed. It is an appeal to the human condition. It is the echo/remanence of God driving Adam and Eve from the garden. They felt alone in their changing condition. They weren't alone. God was right there with them taking care of them even when they failed.

There is a great misunderstanding of the human condition. You know this. They do not.

The "will" of humanity is different from one individual to another. It is the culmination of information/knowledge combined with instinct and feeling that comes from our human bodies.

So when we (Trinitarians) talk about the "will" of Jesus Christ, we teach the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. Which is a combination of the basic human experience of the man Jesus Christ combined with all the full attributes of Deity/Divinity in ONE Unique individual that fully God and fully man.

If you could ever get a Unitarian to really listen to this, I believe it will change them. Their choice. They can or they just keep "kicking against the pricks". That is what Paul did until he a glorified Jesus on the road to Damascus and realize they were One in the same Person.

 

[Studyman]

Why bring up a Creed? Because if the purpose statement of the author of the Gospel of John was John 20:31 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name' ....... then his purpose was NOT to reflect Jesus as God - that concept has to be read INTO the scripture.

Jesus wasn't omnipresent during his ministry nor was he omnipotent. If Jesus was God and never ceased to be God, there was no purpose nor triumph for him to be anointed, exalted and enthroned. How is he an heir and just what did he inherit if he already owns everything?

These are prudent questions. But you should consider that "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do not believe the Christ came to earth as a man. And they don't believe HE was a man of Faith. They promote a philosophy that Jesus faked being a man of Faith, while requiring all other humans to live by Faith. They promote a Christ who reserved God powers unto Himself, that HE withheld from all other humans, and over came sin and temptation, not by Faith as HE required of everyone else, but by these God Powers He reserved into Himself, but denied all other humans. And then when HE overcame, as any one who had been given the same God powers could do, HE Glorified Himself, and gave Himself a name above all other humans. In other words, HE placed on the backs of men who trusted Him, the requirement of Faith to overcome sin and temptations, that HE Himself would not lift with even one of His fingers.

It's a horrible judgment against Him, you are right to question this world's religions.

 

[civic]

Agreed. It is an appeal to the human condition. It is the echo/remanence of God driving Adam and Eve from the garden. They felt alone in their changing condition. They weren't alone. God was right there with them taking care of them even when they failed.

There is a great misunderstanding of the human condition. You know this. They do not.

The "will" of humanity is different from one individual to another. It is the culmination of information/knowledge combined with instinct and feeling that comes from our human bodies.

So when we (Trinitarians) talk about the "will" of Jesus Christ, we teach the Divine Person of Jesus Christ. Which is a combination of the basic human experience of the man Jesus Christ combined with all the full attributes of Deity/Divinity in ONE Unique individual that fully God and fully man.

If you could ever get a Unitarian to really listen to this, I believe it will change them. Their choice. They can or they just keep "kicking against the pricks". That is what Paul did until he a glorified Jesus on the road to Damascus and realize they were One and the same Person.

Ditto

 

[amazing grace]

I gave you scripture you gave me your opinion

Where and what scriptures did you use? I must have missed them.

I gave you 1 Cor. 12:14-20:

<snip>
For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

If you want to use the body as a parallel -- Is God in parts?

 

[praise_yeshua]

These are prudent questions. But you should consider that "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do not believe the Christ came to earth as a man.

Did you notice the "came to earth" part of what you said?

So tell me, what was Christ "BEFORE"... He "came to earth".

BTW. I believe Jesus Christ was a man. Never said otherwise. He simply wasn't the man YOU are. Nor the man I AM individually.

You and I are different from one another. Isn't that obvious? YOU apparently want Jesus Christ to be just like you. He isn't.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, I am a Biblical Unitarian - used to be a Trinitarian but came out from that cloud of confusion!
Yes, you have the right to respond or not - that is your prerogative.

I'm not continuing to deal with your pettiness.

I'm glad you agree that I don't have to tolerate these "I wasn't talking to you" nonsense.

When people say "I was a Trinitarian" I'm very skeptical. Trinitarianism deals with the Nature of God. You didn't really know it. It is rather obvious that you don't. You stopped trying to learn it and settled for the simplicity of Unitarianism.

Would you agree that Unitarianism is simpler than Trinitarianism? I don't "walk away" from a subject as complex as the very nature of God. You did. What does that say about you?

I am not as untrained nor unqualified as you assume.
Yes, my husband is my head. He knows I am on here and he knows my stance.

Having a "head" isn't just about "knowing" you're here and "knowing your stance". Having a head means you have HIS STANCE. I'd like to see if he actually believes the same inane things you do. I doubt it. Thusly, you're not listening to your HEAD.

Get it? You're avoiding this. I can "think" ahead.

 

[amazing grace]

These are prudent questions. But you should consider that "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do not believe the Christ came to earth as a man. And they don't believe HE was a man of Faith. They promote a philosophy that Jesus faked being a man of Faith, while requiring all other humans to live by Faith. They promote a Christ who reserved God powers unto Himself, that HE withheld from all other humans, and over came sin and temptation, not by Faith as HE required of everyone else, but by these God Powers He reserved into Himself, but denied all other humans. And then when HE overcame, as any one who had been given the same God powers could do, HE Glorified Himself, and gave Himself a name above all other humans. In other words, HE placed on the backs of men who trusted Him, the requirement of Faith to overcome sin and temptations, that HE Himself would not lift with even one of His fingers.

It's a horrible judgment against Him, you are right to question this world's religions.

To me, it's all just sad.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To me, it's all just sad.

So you do have a boss! Flattery.......

So petty. Flattery works for the simple minded.

 

[amazing grace]

I'm not continuing to deal with your pettiness.

I'm glad you agree that I don't have to tolerate these "I wasn't talking to you" nonsense.

When people say "I was a Trinitarian" I'm very skeptical. Trinitarianism deals with the Nature of God. You didn't really know it. It is rather obvious that you don't. You stopped trying to learn it and settled for the simplicity of Unitarianism.

Would you agree that Unitarianism is simpler than Trinitarianism? I don't "walk away" from a subject as complex as the very nature of God. You did. What does that say about you?

Having a "head" isn't just about "knowing" you're here and "knowing your stance". Having a head means you have HIS STANCE. I'd like to see if he actually believes the same inane things you do. I doubt it. Thusly, you're not listening to your HEAD.

Get it? You're avoiding this. I can "think" ahead.

So you do have a boss! Flattery.......

So petty. Flattery works for the simple minded.

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.......[2 Cor. 1:12]

 

[JesusFan]

Did you notice the "came to earth" part of what you said?

So tell me, what was Christ "BEFORE"... He "came to earth".

BTW. I believe Jesus Christ was a man. Never said otherwise. He simply wasn't the man YOU are. Nor the man I AM individually.

You and I are different from one another. Isn't that obvious? YOU apparently want Jesus Christ to be just like you. He isn't.

Jesus was and is Yahweh assuming human flesh, so that is NOT the same as anyone else

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus was and is Yahweh assuming human flesh, so that is NOT the same as anyone else

Yep. One and Only Son.

 

[Studyman]

To me, it's all just sad.

Yes, but if I might humbly point out. God placed Adam and Eve in the same world in which other voices existed, who also professed to know God, even quoting some of God's Word, as a test of their Faith. Abraham to, placed in a world where the same other voice existed, and after 70 years of being influenced by it, God called him out of it, "to a land that I shall show thee". Noah, Caleb, Daniel, Shadrack and all the Faithful examples in the Bible, most importantly Jesus, who His Father placed in the same world with the same test of His Faith. Which is precious to God. You and I have been placed by God in the same world.

It helps me not to get to angry, (sometimes I fail) or sad, when I understand how precious to God the trials of our faith are.

1 Peter 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

I can't imagine how sad Jesus must have been to see so many choosing the course of this world, over the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.

Your posts have encouraged me greatly, and I hope you continue seeking God's Truth through His Word, and continue taking heed and questioning, the other voices in the world God placed us in, that profess to know God.

Thank you!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, but if I might humbly point out. God placed Adam and Eve in the same world in which other voices existed, who also professed to know God, even quoting some of God's Word, as a test of their Faith. Abraham to, placed in a world where the same other voice existed, and after 70 years of being influenced by it, God called him out of it, "to a land that I shall show thee". Noah, Caleb, Daniel, Shadrack and all the Faithful examples in the Bible, most importantly Jesus, who His Father placed in the same world with the same test of His Faith. Which is precious to God. You and I have been placed by God in the same world.

It helps me not to get to angry, (sometimes I fail) or sad, when I understand how precious to God the trials of our faith are.

1 Peter 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

I can't imagine how sad Jesus must have been to see so many choosing the course of this world, over the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.

Your posts have encouraged me greatly, and I hope you continue seeking God's Truth through His Word, and continue taking heed and questioning, the other voices in the world God placed us in, that profess to know God.

Thank you!

This is what I call "Pom Pom theology".

You're praising everyone but Jesus Christ. How telling.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, but if I might humbly point out. God placed Adam and Eve in the same world in which other voices existed, who also professed to know God, even quoting some of God's Word, as a test of their Faith. Abraham to, placed in a world where the same other voice existed, and after 70 years of being influenced by it, God called him out of it, "to a land that I shall show thee". Noah, Caleb, Daniel, Shadrack and all the Faithful examples in the Bible, most importantly Jesus, who His Father placed in the same world with the same test of His Faith. Which is precious to God. You and I have been placed by God in the same world.

It helps me not to get to angry, (sometimes I fail) or sad, when I understand how precious to God the trials of our faith are.

1 Peter 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

I can't imagine how sad Jesus must have been to see so many choosing the course of this world, over the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.

Your posts have encouraged me greatly, and I hope you continue seeking God's Truth through His Word, and continue taking heed and questioning, the other voices in the world God placed us in, that profess to know God.

Thank you!

Our knowing God and Jesus Christ whom he sent IS ETERNAL LIFE - a matter of death and life...... so yes, it is sad and it can be maddening that people choose to believe in a doctrine that is not scriptural. And if I get dumped on in anger and vitriol - I try my best to not respond in the same manner.

God bless and thank you for your kind words.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I pray to the Father in Jesus' name......that's not to say that I don't talk to Jesus from time to time.

Why do you think the Father hears you when you're bypassing His Son? You seem to think they're different. Right? One is more important than the other... right? That is what Unitarianism requires you to believe.

'to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God....'
I don't need to 'learn' the Trinity doctrine.....I argue and stand up for God the Father, the one true God and for his Son, our Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him, God's Christ.

You can't go to the Father by.....bypassing the Son.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He is the way. You're not the way. I'm not the way. He is the ONLY way. Do you believe this?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Our knowing God and Jesus Christ whom he sent IS ETERNAL LIFE - a matter of death and life...... so yes, it is sad and it can be maddening that people choose to believe in a doctrine that is not scriptural. And if I get dumped on in anger and vitriol - I try my best to not respond in the same manner.

God bless and thank you for your kind words.

Same manner......

Did you say "I wasn't talking to you". What is that exactly, love and affection? Did the angels sing to you when you said it?

Yes. I'm being sarcastic. Sarcasm is good. It reveals the absurdity of someone's thoughts.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God raised him from the dead. Jesus was a mortal being - he died and God raised him from the dead ---- I believe I said "he was 'given eternal life.'"

and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. [Acts 3:16]
let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead [Acts 4:10]
But God raised him from the dead, [Acts 13:30]
but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. [Rom. 4:24,25]
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom. 10:9]
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— [Gal. 1:1]
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [1 Cor. 15:45]

You need to add a few more verses to your small collection about the Resurrection.....

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

That is not heretical.

Sure it is. It denies the Innate power of Jesus Christ. Notice the appeal to HIS OWN POWER. I have THE POWER.

The phrase "This commandment I've received of my Father" is a reference to the Unity. Notice. He didn't say he received the power. Pay attention to what you read.

 

[mikesw]

This is what I call "Pom Pom theology".

You're praising everyone but Jesus Christ. How telling.

Wow. Studyman revealed more than I could have expected to hear regarding the other viewpoint.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not Jewish. I do not have a Rabbi. I can speak for myself.

That I agree with. However, you said you didn't.

Yes, Jesus said he was before Abraham......you believe in literal preexistence; I believe in notional/ideal preexistence where Jesus existed in the divine plan, mind, and foreknowledge of God.
IOW, Jesus preexisted and was before Abraham in prophecy, in God's foreknowledge.

Yeah. Just a "plan". So what did Abraham actually see?

My appreciation of Jesus Christ seems poor to you because I don't believe he is God but is the Son of God, the Christ.
I have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Does God save or man?

I believe that Jesus made known the Father and fully reflected his Father's character as the only Son of the Father - that Father being the only true God.

Yep, like Father like Son - And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me."

I don't believe you really believe this. You say this out of "one corner of your mouth" and something else "out of the other corner of your mouth".

It is nothing more than Double speak. You can't have BOTH. You must choose.