Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[Alter2Ego]

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

Darby:

You are ignoring context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). The expression "one," when used at John 10:30, is with reference to unity of purpose. Let me demonstrate that by quoting scripture, then I will follow the scriptures with three questions that should help you reason on the matter. I will bold some of the words within the scriptural quotation in red and some will be enlarged in black because I want to draw those words to your attention.

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. (John 17:1 -- New International Version)

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (John 17:6 -- New International Version)

"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." (John 17:9 -- New International Version)

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— (John 17:22 -- New International Version)

"I am one with them, and you are one with me, so they may become completely one. Then this world's people will know that you sent me. They will know that you love my followers as much as you love me." (John 17:23 -- Contemporary English Version)

QUESTION #1 to Darby: Since the Trinitarian claim is that Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god, then God was praying to himself at John 17:1. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 to Darby: According to the context at John 17:22-23, Jesus said in prayer to his heavenly Father that he wanted all of his disciples to be "one." Since, according to the Trinitarian claim, the word "one" when used by Jesus at John 10:30 is proof that Jesus and Jehovah are one single god, then when the same word "one" is used by Jesus at John 17:22-23 it means Jesus expected his dozens of disciples to become a single human being. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #3 to Darby: According to John 17:6 and 9, the disciples originally belonged to Jehovah the Father, but Jehovah gave the disciples to Jesus the son. TRUE or FALSE?

 

[synergy]

Yes, I am a Biblical Unitarian - used to be a Trinitarian but came out from that cloud of confusion!
Yes, you have the right to respond or not - that is your prerogative.

The only way someone can be a "Biblical Unitarian" is if he/she has ripped out John 1:1-18 and multitudes of other verses from the Bible they're reading.

 

[synergy]

Yours and @praise_yeshua's argument has essentially been "John 17:3 doesn't mean the Father is alone the true God" despite it explicitly saying such. This is one of the most ignorant and deceptive arguments I have seen presented on this very board.

What's deceptive is that you continue to totally ignore the fact that along with the Father being the only true God (Monotheism), the Word is God (John 1:1c) and tabernacles as Jesus (John 1:14). When will you ever believe all those Biblical facts?

Of course the Father is alone the true God. Not only did Jesus explicitly say so, but the entire Bible is in line with that. You've been shown all of those ways, remember them now; your denials will not age well.

You're the one who continuously denies that the tabernacled Word (Jesus) was God. When will you ever come around to the truth?

 

[amazing grace]

The only way someone can be a "Biblical Unitarian" is if he/she has ripped out John 1:1-18 and multitudes of other verses from the Bible they're reading.

OR read it from the author's original intent, read it with the understanding that the original audience would have.......And not read a Creed forumlated some 200 years later back into an earlier document. I believe that is called anachronism.

But thank you for your opinion.

 

[synergy]

OR read it from the author's original intent, read it with the understanding that the original audience would have.......And not read a Creed forumlated some 200 years later back into an earlier document. I believe that is called anachronism.

But thank you for your opinion.

John 1:1-18 doesn't mention any "Creed" so why bring it up in the first place? John's Prologue is clear in that the Word was God and tabernacled as Jesus. If you do believe that God is omnipresent and omnipotent then the same attributes can be recognized of the tabernacled Word (Jesus) who was God, and still is because God can never cease to be God.

 

[synergy]

Darby:

You are ignoring context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). The expression "one," when used at John 10:30, is with reference to unity of purpose. Let me demonstrate that by quoting scripture, then I will follow the scriptures with three questions that should help you reason on the matter. I will bold some of the words within the scriptural quotation in red and some will be enlarged in black because I want to draw those words to your attention.

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. (John 17:1 -- New International Version)

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (John 17:6 -- New International Version)

"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." (John 17:9 -- New International Version)

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— (John 17:22 -- New International Version)

"I am one with them, and you are one with me, so they may become completely one. Then this world's people will know that you sent me. They will know that you love my followers as much as you love me." (John 17:23 -- Contemporary English Version)

QUESTION #1 to Darby: Since the Trinitarian claim is that Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god, then God was praying to himself at John 17:1. TRUE or FALSE?

FALSE. The Son and the Father are not the same person praying to himself. When Jesus prays in John 17:1, it is the tabernacled Word, who was God, communicating with the Father, not God speaking to Himself as a single person. Scripture consistently shows this personal distinction while affirming shared deity (e.g., John 1:1 says the Word was with God and was God). Thus the prayer reflects real interpersonal fellowship within the Trinity, especially in light of the Son’s tabernacled role, not a logical contradiction as your objection assumes.

QUESTION #2 to Darby: According to the context at John 17:22-23, Jesus said in prayer to his heavenly Father that he wanted all of his disciples to be "one." Since, according to the Trinitarian claim, the word "one" when used by Jesus at John 10:30 is proof that Jesus and Jehovah are one single god, then when the same word "one" is used by Jesus at John 17:22-23 it means Jesus expected his dozens of disciples to become a single human being. TRUE or FALSE?

FALSE. Your argument confuses two different kinds of “oneness.” In John 10:30, when Jesus says “I and the Father are one,” the context shows a unity of divine power and essence. This is evidenced by the Jews attempting to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:33) because they understood the claim as equality with God. However, in John 17:22–John 17:23, Jesus prays that believers may be “one” in the same relational sense—a unity of purpose and fellowship patterned after the unity between Father and Son, not an ontological fusion into one being. The analogy itself proves the distinction: believers reflect that unity but do not become a single human organism, just as the Father and Son are perfectly united without ceasing to be distinct persons.

QUESTION #3 to Darby: According to John 17:6 and 9, the disciples originally belonged to Jehovah the Father, but Jehovah gave the disciples to Jesus the son. TRUE or FALSE?

TRUE but incomplete in implication. It is correct that John 17:6 and John 17:9 say the disciples belonged to the Father and were given to the Son. However, this does not imply that Jesus is a lesser or created being; rather, it reflects the functional roles within God’s redemptive plan. Throughout the same Gospel, the Father entrusts authority and judgment to the Son (John 5:22; John 6:37), demonstrating coordinated action within the Trinity. The giving language describes relational order and mission, not inequality of nature, which is why the Bible also affirms the Son shares the Father’s divine identity and glory (John 1:1; John 17:5).

 

[amazing grace]

John 1:1-18 doesn't mention any "Creed" so why bring it up in the first place? John's Prologue is clear in that the Word was God and tabernacled as Jesus. If you do believe that God is omnipresent and omnipotent then the same attributes can be recognized of the tabernacled Word (Jesus) who was God, and still is because God can never cease to be God.

Why bring up a Creed? Because if the purpose statement of the author of the Gospel of John was John 20:31 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name' ....... then his purpose was NOT to reflect Jesus as God - that concept has to be read INTO the scripture.

Jesus wasn't omnipresent during his ministry nor was he omnipotent. If Jesus was God and never ceased to be God, there was no purpose nor triumph for him to be anointed, exalted and enthroned. How is he an heir and just what did he inherit if he already owns everything?

 

[civic]

Darby:

You are ignoring context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). The expression "one," when used at John 10:30, is with reference to unity of purpose. Let me demonstrate that by quoting scripture, then I will follow the scriptures with three questions that should help you reason on the matter. I will bold some of the words within the scriptural quotation in red and some will be enlarged in black because I want to draw those words to your attention.

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. (John 17:1 -- New International Version)

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (John 17:6 -- New International Version)

"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." (John 17:9 -- New International Version)

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— (John 17:22 -- New International Version)

"I am one with them, and you are one with me, so they may become completely one. Then this world's people will know that you sent me. They will know that you love my followers as much as you love me." (John 17:23 -- Contemporary English Version)

QUESTION #1 to Darby: Since the Trinitarian claim is that Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god, then God was praying to himself at John 17:1. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 to Darby: According to the context at John 17:22-23, Jesus said in prayer to his heavenly Father that he wanted all of his disciples to be "one." Since, according to the Trinitarian claim, the word "one" when used by Jesus at John 10:30 is proof that Jesus and Jehovah are one single god, then when the same word "one" is used by Jesus at John 17:22-23 it means Jesus expected his dozens of disciples to become a single human being. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #3 to Darby: According to John 17:6 and 9, the disciples originally belonged to Jehovah the Father, but Jehovah gave the disciples to Jesus the son. TRUE or FALSE?

Being One has to do with Unity. God is One in Unity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit just as the man and woman who are two become one flesh in Unity, the body of Christ with many members becomes One in Unity.

Conclusion: Gods 2 Divine Institutions marriage and the church reflect Gods image, that God is One- Father ,Son, Holy Spirit- the Shema. Just as God is love requires another to share and experience that love- God said it was not good for man to be ALONE hence God created Eve so that the 2 may become 1. The same with the church that Jesus said all will know you are My disciples by your love for one an other. Love reflects the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

You originally asked if "Father killed His Son?" and if that's what you think, you must think God killed Himself. When things start sounding crazy it's time to rethink it. Jesus (not God) humbled himself and obeyed God until he died. It's because Jesus is a human and not God. Pretty straightforward unless that is a problem for you?

Being "human" isn't "straightforward".

When you look at verses such as you reference, you are wanting Jesus Christ to be completely like you when He isn't exactly like you in all ways. He isn't sinful. He has never been sinful. He isn't innately sinful. We also have the problem/baggage of what you think "sinful" means. We can discuss, but you will not like what I have to say about it. We are getting to a point where faith is necessary from you. You can't handle some of the things associated with knowing God yet. You can't. You're not there. The way you think is so problematic you can't grasp what you're fighting against.

I want to go back to what I said about "My God, why have you forsaken me". I believe it is important for you to understand what I'm saying here. It deals directly with the Incarnation of Eternal Qualities/Essence of existence within the context of a very weak "human experience".

When Jesus said those words, It wasn't a statement of fact. It was statement of experience. Jesus didn't believe He was actually forsaken. Yet, because of the human experience He was living, He certainly felt that way.

You're having a problem with understanding this in the context of the message you believe is true. You can understand this in your human experience. That is where you can "connect" with this. You can see it for what it is. You've experienced this yourself.

What you must not do, is attribute your own experience to the Character of Jesus Christ. In this, you are demeaning Him at a very fundamental level. You're denying His core qualties of Character.

So don't say that Jesus must have believed He was alone......

Have you ever thought you were alone but you weren't? Jesus knew better.

 

[synergy]

Why bring up a Creed? Because if the purpose statement of the author of the Gospel of John was John 20:31 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name' ....... then his purpose was NOT to reflect Jesus as God - that concept has to be read INTO the scripture.

How about John 8:24? Does that imperative creedal statement, straight from Jesus, make your personal list of creedal statements?

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

Jesus wasn't omnipresent during his ministry nor was he omnipotent. If Jesus was God and never ceased to be God, there was no purpose nor triumph for him to be anointed, exalted and enthroned. How is he an heir and just what did he inherit if he already owns everything?

You are confusing Christ’s incarnation and voluntary humiliation with a denial of His divine nature. Scripture teaches that the Son did not cease to be God but voluntarily took on a true human nature and the role of a servant, limiting the independent exercise of His divine attributes during His earthly mission (Phil 2:6–8), which explains why He could live in genuine dependence on the Father while still possessing his God nature.

His later exaltation and enthronement is a public vindication and royal installation of the incarnate Messiah who completed redemption (Heb 1:2–3; Acts 2:33–36). As the eternal Word, who was God, He already possesses all things by nature, yet as the incarnate Son and second Adam He receives the kingdom as the representative of redeemed humanity, fulfilling the messianic promise that the Son would inherit and rule the nations (Psalm 2). Thus the anointing, exaltation, and inheritance do not deny His deity. They demonstrate the triumph of the Word who was God and who accomplished redemption and was publicly installed as the reigning Messiah.

 

[civic]

Being "human" isn't "straightforward".

When you look at verses such as you reference, you are wanting Jesus Christ to be completely like you when He isn't exactly like you in all ways. He isn't sinful. He has never been sinful. He isn't innately sinful. We also have the problem/baggage of what you think "sinful" means. We can discuss, but you will not like what I have to say about it. We are getting to a point where faith is necessary from you. You can't handle some of the things associated with knowing God yet. You can't. You're not there. The way you think is so problematic you can't grasp what you're fighting against.

I want to go back to what I said about "My God, why have you forsaken me". I believe it is important for you to understand what I'm saying here. It deals directly with the Incarnation of Eternal Qualities/Essence of existence within the context of a very weak "human experience".

When Jesus said those words, It wasn't a statement of fact. It was statement of experience. Jesus didn't believe He was actually forsaken. Yet, because of the human experience He was living, He certainly felt that way.

You're having a problem with understanding this in the context of the message you believe is true. You can understand this in your human experience. That is where you can "connect" with this. You can see it for what it is. You've experienced this yourself.

What you must not do, is attribute your own experience to the Character of Jesus Christ. In this, you are demeaning Him at a very fundamental level. You're denying His core qualties of Character.

So don't say that Jesus must have believed He was alone......

Have you ever thought you were alone but you weren't? Jesus knew better.

Another thing about that verse in the Psalm. As we know the Psalms are poetry and were songs. So the "literalists" conflate the type of passage it is with its intent. There is historical, poetic, wisdom, prophetic, apocalyptic, epistles, parables, narrative, law etc....... So thats the first mistake made by most when Jesus was quoting that verse.

For the heck of it I even inquired with AI.

Interpreting the Psalms as poetry and song requires engaging with their emotional, artistic, and musical nature rather than treating them as prose, by focusing on parallelism, imagery, and their function as expressions of faith. Key methods include identifying structural patterns like parallelism, using "metaphorical language" to feel the author's emotions, and understanding them as a collection of songs/prayers.

 

[Studyman]

I read it. They way you apply it is rather crazy. I expressed that. Did you read it?


That doesn't actually indicate a distinctly contrary will. If your wife said that "I'm here to do the will of my husband", then I would agree. She really doesn't want to "obey" you. She can't given how you treat here.

She would tell you that she is here to do the will of God.

Now, when Jesus said that, he wasn't expressing a contrary will. He was associating HIS WILL, with the WILL OF THE FATHER.

That is your religion. But I believe HE had a will like all humans, he denied His will to be a "doer" of His Father's will. That is the whole point, in my understanding.

I was perfect agreement. You can't understand that because of your own experience. You've got different "man" than God has it. He is better than you. He is of a Greater sort. Not the sort you're like.

Thank you for another spirit filled opinion

I never said that he didn't have his own will. His will was identical to the Father's will. That is what I said. Pay attention. It was HIS WILL, nonetheless.

That is what you get when you have perfect love. YOU don't have that. Get it? You're not like THEM. THEY (Father and Son) have a better relationship then YOU do with your wife or whomever else you claim "intimacy" with. So don't project your sensibilities upon God.

Again, I hope you get the help you need.

You're not honest. You have no integrity.
I'm glad you're offended. Do you remember Jesus saying that "offenses must come". That father, wives, sons and daughters when be separated? Congratulation on living "your dream".
Jesus repented? Wow. Where?

Thank you again for another spirit filled reply

I truly hope you seek out the help you need.

So long PY.

 

[amazing grace]

Being One has to do with Unity. God is One in Unity as Father, Son, Holy Spirit just as the man and woman who are two become one flesh in Unity, the body of Christ with many members becomes One in Unity.

Conclusion: Gods 2 Divine Institutions marriage and the church reflect Gods image, that God is One- Father ,Son, Holy Spirit- the Shema. Just as God is love requires another to share and experience that love- God said it was not good for man to be ALONE hence God created Eve so that the 2 may become 1. The same with the church that Jesus said all will know you are My disciples by your love for one an other. Love reflects the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

So God is ONE in unity with HIMSELF being that God is the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit?
You want to compare a husband and wife being two becoming ONE flesh or the body of Christ being ONE body in the same light as you view God? How is it even similar to ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS?

The husband and wife are in unity with one another in purpose and live in harmony with one another just as the many members of the body of Christ. Living and being in unity is bringing separate parts together into a cohesive functioning united whole.

 

[civic]

So God is ONE in unity with HIMSELF being that God is the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit?
You want to compare a husband and wife being two becoming ONE flesh or the body of Christ being ONE body in the same light as you view God? How is it even similar to ONE BEING who is THREE PERSONS?

The husband and wife are in unity with one another in purpose and live in harmony with one another just as the many members of the body of Christ. Living and being in unity is bringing separate parts together into a cohesive functioning united whole.

Its very similar if you put on your thinking cap, not your theological bias cap.

God is One- Father, Son, Holy Spirit- these Three are One Being
One flesh- the husband, wife, man and woman- these Two are One flesh
One Body- all believers comprise the One Body of Christ- the many are One body.

See the PARALLELS ?
See the SIMILARITY ?

All the Above are ONE IN UNITY, not number.

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

How about John 8:24? Does that imperative creedal statement, straight from Jesus, make your personal list of creedal statements?

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

It seems that what I said about a Creed was misunderstood: "And not read a Creed forumlated some 200 years later back into an earlier document." John 8:24 is not in the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, nor the Chaceldonian Creed at least not to my knowledge.

I'll answer in the way the unbelieving Jews answered: Who are you? And Jesus responded: Just what I have been telling you from the beginning and from the beginning he had been telling them that God was his Father which made him the Son of God, the Messiah.

You are confusing Christ’s incarnation and voluntary humiliation with a denial of His divine nature. Scripture teaches that the Son did not cease to be God but voluntarily took on a true human nature and the role of a servant, limiting the independent exercise of His divine attributes during His earthly mission (Phil 2:6–8), which explains why He could live in genuine dependence on the Father while still possessing his God nature.

Scripture doesn't teach that Jesus was God the Son, nor does it teach that Jesus was God. What scripture teaches is that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah. It teaches Jesus' humility --- he did think more highly of himself over others in his status as the Son of God, the Messiah but emptied himself of said status and reputation --- he did not grasp at equality with God but remained humble in service to others and obedient to God - therefore God highly exalted him and gave him a name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. In order to live in genuine dependence on God; he could not be God.

His later exaltation and enthronement is a public vindication and royal installation of the incarnate Messiah who completed redemption (Heb 1:2–3; Acts 2:33–36). As the eternal Word, who was God, He already possesses all things by nature, yet as the incarnate Son and second Adam He receives the kingdom as the representative of redeemed humanity, fulfilling the messianic promise that the Son would inherit and rule the nations (Psalm 2). Thus the anointing, exaltation, and inheritance do not deny His deity. They demonstrate the triumph of the Word who was God and who accomplished redemption and was publicly installed as the reigning Messiah.

God's Son was indeed exalted, enthroned and installed as the Messiah, God's Christ. Yes, God's Son was appointed heir of all things and God's Son was the radiance of God's glory, the exact imprint, representation of His person.

YES -- "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

YES -- Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God - Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah did fulfill Psalm 2 --- All to the GLORY OF GOD - His God and his Father.

 

[amazing grace]

Its very similar if you put on your thinking cap, not your theological bias cap.

God is One- Father, Son, Holy Spirit- these Three are One Being

BUT THEY ARE ALL THE SAME BEING IOW ---- God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit.

One flesh- the husband, wife, man and woman- these Two are One flesh

A husband and wife are NOT ONE BEING --- the husband is not the wife nor is the wife the husband yet God is God the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit.

The husband and wife are one in unity and harmony in the resonsibilities of a husband and wife, in the running of their household and the upbringing of their children, etc.

One Body- all believers comprise the One Body of Christ- the many are One body

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.......unity working in harmony together.

Paul, Mary, John and Charles are members in the body of Christ, the church ---- but Paul is not Mary, John and/or Charles as God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ---- ONE BEING.

See the PARALLELS ?
See the SIMILARITY ?

All the Above are ONE IN UNITY, not number.

hope this helps !!!

See the difference? I'm sure you don't but hope this helps.

 

[civic]

BUT THEY ARE ALL THE SAME BEING IOW ---- God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit.

A husband and wife are NOT ONE BEING --- the husband is not the wife nor is the wife the husband yet God is God the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit.

The husband and wife are one in unity and harmony in the resonsibilities of a husband and wife, in the running of their household and the upbringing of their children, etc.

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.......unity working in harmony together.

Paul, Mary, John and Charles are members in the body of Christ, the church ---- but Paul is not Mary, John and/or Charles as God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit ---- ONE BEING.

See the difference? I'm sure you don't but hope this helps.

You are stuck on numbers , math

 

[civic]

One is Being, 3 in Persons
One flesh, 2 in persons
One body, many persons

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

You are stuck on numbers , math

And you are stuck on fusing people together into ONE BEING as you fuse three persons into the single one being, Yahweh.

For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

If you want to use the body as a parallel -- Is God in parts?

 

[civic]

And you are stuck on fusing people together into ONE BEING as you fuse three persons into the single one being, Yahweh.

For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

If you want to use the body as a parallel -- Is God in parts?

I gave you scripture you gave me your opinion