Us who believed
Christ paid our sin debt
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brightfame52
Well-known member
They were ungody sinners who were redeemed by His death. Do you deny Christ died for ungodly sinners according to Rom 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The us are sinners Christ died for,
" Its the Blood of Christ, His Death that redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Also His Blood alone purges the conscience from deaf works, unto serving the Living God Heb 9 14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
See that ? The Blood of Christ secures a life of Faith to serve the Living God !
Redeemed before or after they believed?
Redeemed before or after they believed?
brightfame52
Well-known member
The us are sinners Christ died for,
" Its the Blood of Christ, His Death that redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Also His Blood alone purges the conscience from deaf works, unto serving the Living God Heb 9 14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
See that ? The Blood of Christ secures a life of Faith to serve the Living God !
brightfame52
Well-known member
They were redeemed from Iniquity, so before they believed. What is the testimony of these believers on how they were redeemed Rev 5:9
9 And they[Believers] sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
brightfame52
Well-known member
The us are sinners Christ died for,
" Its the Blood of Christ, His Death that redeemed them He died for from all iniquity Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Also His Blood alone purges the conscience from deaf works, unto serving the Living God Heb 9 14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
See that ? The Blood of Christ secures a life of Faith to serve the Living God !
Believe
Member
Is this what I'm hearing on this thread?
Redundant Quotative Frame
The use of extra speaking verbs to frame or introduce a speech, drawing attention to a surprisingly unimportant element of the speech that's being ignored. Also see: Repetition
Or is it just the plain old broken record technique?
Redundant Quotative Frame
The use of extra speaking verbs to frame or introduce a speech, drawing attention to a surprisingly unimportant element of the speech that's being ignored. Also see: Repetition
Or is it just the plain old broken record technique?
Believe
Member
I see that! Oh great now I'm doing it
civic
Well-known member
Belief is not necessary nor is the gospel. He thinks he was saved in eternity past
He won't come out and say it .
Doing what ?I see that! Oh great now I'm doing it
I could be responding to a poster who believes he was eternally saved,
who will answer no questions at all
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Believe
Member
No I was saved in 1980 but that does seem like an eternity ago
Referring to this post that seems to be repeated over and over.
By @brightfame52
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Its all that poster doesNo I was saved in 1980 but that doesn't seem like an eternity ago
Referring to this post that seems to be repeated over and over.
By @brightfame52
He/She answers no question
Rockson
Well-known member
The words that come to my mind is camouflaged theology. Calvinism seeks even to give an appearance that it can mix in with most Christians that believe man has a free will or any will for that matter by saying God's ordaining everything, inflicts no violence on the will of his creatures. That's just a non credible camouflage on their part. They really believe God's will is done and mankind's will God couldn't care less about nor does man independently choose anything.
Yes, yet that posters views are even more extreme than that of mainstay Calvinists
civic
Well-known member
you do not understand the atonement/ propitiation for sin. you do not understand the love of Christ in the atonement.
Is 53:10 which can also mean meek , humble not not just crushed . See Brown Driver and Briggs OT lexicon for proof .
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand
Below we see the same Hebrew word has various meanings.
Psalm 34:18
The LORD is near to the brokenhearted; He saves the contrite in spirit.
Jeremiah 44:10
To this day they have not humbled themselves or shown reverence, nor have they followed my law and the decrees I set before you and your ancestors.
The word means humbled, contrite, meek see BDB- Brown Driver Briggs lexicon of the O.T.
So Isaiah 53:10 can read it was the Lords will to humble him and cause him to suffer.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53.
Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering wrath from God.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE(not God) considered Him punished by God.
The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.
Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
Scripture interprets scripture, precept upon precept. The N.T. completely left out the penal/wrath aspect that many teach. At best its an argument from silence. And at its worst- its unbiblical.
The fact is the Father did not kill the Son nor was He responsible for His death. The Son did not suffer any wrath from the Father . The NT evidence from Jesus and the Apostle’s say otherwise.
The Bible leans on Expiation rather than propitiation in both N.T. and O.T. understanding.
Thayers
ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);
1. an appeasing, propitiating, Vulg.propitiatio (Plutarch, de sera num. vind. c. 17; plural joined with καθαρμοι, Plutarch, Sol. 12; with the genitive of the object τῶν θεῶν, the Orphica Arg. 39; Plutarch, Fab. 18; θεῶν μῆνιν ἱλασμοῦ καί χαριστηριων δεομένην, vit. Camill. 7 at the end; ποιεῖσθαι ἱλασμόν, of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice, 2 Macc. 3:33).
; προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also for סְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (); Daniel 9:9, Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.
1 John 2:2- Propitiation- Cambridge
The word for ‘propitiation’ occurs nowhere in N. T. but here and in 1 John 4:10; in both places without the article and followed by ‘for our sins’. It signifies any action which has expiation as its object, whether prayer, compensation, or sacrifice. Thus ‘the ram of the atonement’ (Numbers 5:8) is ‘the ram of the propitiation’ or ‘expiation’, where the same Greek word as is used here is used in the LXX. Comp. Ezekiel 44:27; Numbers 29:11; Leviticus 25:9. The LXX. of ‘there is forgiveness with Thee’ (Psalm 130:4) is remarkable: literally rendered it is ‘before Thee is the propitiation’ (ὁ ἱλασμός). So also the Vulgate, apud Te propitiatio est. And this is the idea that we have here: Jesus Christ, as being righteous, is ever present before the Lord as the propitiation. With this we should compare the use of the cognate verb in Hebrews 2:17 and cognate substantive Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5. From these passages it is clear that in N. T. the word is closely connected with that special form of expiation which takes place by means of an offering or sacrifice, although this idea is not of necessity included in the radical signification of the word itself. See notes in all three places.
Better Translations of 1 John 2:2
New American Bible
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
NET Bible
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.
New Revised Standard Version
and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Berean Standard Bible
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
International Standard Version
It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.
Here is the only other use from 1 John 4:10 that the NASB translated as propitiation.
Below love is used 13 times which is the overwhelming evidence it means atoning sacrifice, expiation and not propitiation which would be in direct contradiction to the context of the passage and Johns emphasis on Gods love used 13 times in the passage. Context determines the meaning of a word and its clear from the context hilasmos means expiation and not propitiation.
1 John 4:7-12
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for lovecomes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we lovedGod, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV
Now here is the interesting thing its used in the context of Gods love, not Gods anger/wrath that needs appeasing. There are better translations of the Greek word below. The "context" makes it clear in 1 John 4 that its Gods love and not His anger/wrath that needs appeasing that is the emphasis in the passage.
New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New American Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.
NET Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
New Revised Standard Version
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrificefor our sins.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
yes I like that description as its very fitting.
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