Christ paid our sin debt

[TomL]

The words that come to my mind is camouflaged theology. Calvinism seeks even to give an appearance that it can mix in with most Christians that believe man has a free will or any will for that matter by saying God's ordaining everything, inflicts no violence on the will of his creatures. That's just a non credible camouflage on their part. They really believe God's will is done and mankind's will God couldn't care less about nor does man independently choose anything.

While trying to pound a square peg into a round hole

 

[Rockson]

While trying to pound a square peg into a round hole

The sad thing is some who have no expertise in the word of God become confused and conflicted with all their mumble jumbo. My hope and prayer is that some of them too with rise up and say enough if enough and cast it out of their minds as well.

 

[civic]

The sad thing is some who have no expertise in the word of God become confused and conflicted with all their mumble jumbo. My hope and prayer is that some of them too with rise up and say enough if enough and cast it out of their minds as well.

Like I always say if a calvinist were to read the Bible as if it was the very first time they were reading it they would not be calvinists. It's indoctrinated into them just the same way it is with JW's. mormons, 7th day adventists, catholics etc........ it's a form of brainwashing.

Trust me I know this all to well from personal experience lol.

It's like the alcoholic who cannot see or admit he is one. It's a state of denial.

 

[TomL]

Better Translations of 1 John 2:2

New American Bible
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

NET Bible
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.

New Revised Standard Version
and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Berean Standard Bible
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

International Standard Version
It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

(Anderson) And he is the expiation for our sins: not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.
(Bishops) And he is ye attonement for our sinnes: not for our sinnes only, but also for the sinnes of all the worlde.
(CEV) Christ is the sacrifice that takes away our sins and the sins of all the world's people.
(CENT) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(ERV) Jesus is the way our sins are taken away. And he is the way all people can have their sins taken away too.
(GDBY_NT) he is the expiator for our sins: and not ours only, but indeed for the whole world.
(GSNT) He is himself an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world.
(EHV) He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world.
(MSB1stDraft) He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(REV_231015) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
(The Scriptures 1998+) And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.
(TCNT) and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of the whole world besides.
(RNT) And he is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but for those of the whole world.
(TPT) He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(TS2009) And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.
(WEB) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
(Weymouth) and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(Williams) And He is Himself the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.
(WIKI) He himself is the sacrifice that expiates our sins, and not just ours but those of the whole world as well.
(YS) And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.

 

[TomL]

The sad thing is some who have no expertise in the word of God become confused and conflicted with all their mumble jumbo. My hope and prayer is that some of them too with rise up and say enough if enough and cast it out of their minds as well.

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

you do not understand the atonement/ propitiation for sin. you do not understand the love of Christ in the atonement.

Is 53:10 which can also mean meek , humble not not just crushed . See Brown Driver and Briggs OT lexicon for proof .

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand

Below we see the same Hebrew word has various meanings.

Psalm 34:18
The LORD is near to the brokenhearted; He saves the contrite in spirit.

Jeremiah 44:10
To this day they have not humbled themselves or shown reverence, nor have they followed my law and the decrees I set before you and your ancestors.

The word means humbled, contrite, meek see BDB- Brown Driver Briggs lexicon of the O.T.

So Isaiah 53:10 can read it was the Lords will to humble him and cause him to suffer.

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53.

Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering wrath from God.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE(not God) considered Him punished by God.

The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.

Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

Scripture interprets scripture, precept upon precept. The N.T. completely left out the penal/wrath aspect that many teach. At best its an argument from silence. And at its worst- its unbiblical.

The fact is the Father did not kill the Son nor was He responsible for His death. The Son did not suffer any wrath from the Father . The NT evidence from Jesus and the Apostle’s say otherwise.

The Bible leans on Expiation rather than propitiation in both N.T. and O.T. understanding.

Thayers
ἱλασμός, ἱλασμοῦ, ὁ (ἱλάσκομαι);

1. an appeasing, propitiating, Vulg.propitiatio (Plutarch, de sera num. vind. c. 17; plural joined with καθαρμοι, Plutarch, Sol. 12; with the genitive of the object τῶν θεῶν, the Orphica Arg. 39; Plutarch, Fab. 18; θεῶν μῆνιν ἱλασμοῦ καί χαριστηριων δεομένην, vit. Camill. 7 at the end; ποιεῖσθαι ἱλασμόν, of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice, 2 Macc. 3:33).
; προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περί τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10 (κριός τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; (cf. ἡμέρα τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9); also for סְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (); Daniel 9:9, Theod.). (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.

1 John 2:2- Propitiation- Cambridge
The word for ‘propitiation’ occurs nowhere in N. T. but here and in 1 John 4:10; in both places without the article and followed by ‘for our sins’. It signifies any action which has expiation as its object, whether prayer, compensation, or sacrifice. Thus ‘the ram of the atonement’ (Numbers 5:8) is ‘the ram of the propitiation’ or ‘expiation’, where the same Greek word as is used here is used in the LXX. Comp. Ezekiel 44:27; Numbers 29:11; Leviticus 25:9. The LXX. of ‘there is forgiveness with Thee’ (Psalm 130:4) is remarkable: literally rendered it is ‘before Thee is the propitiation’ (ὁ ἱλασμός). So also the Vulgate, apud Te propitiatio est. And this is the idea that we have here: Jesus Christ, as being righteous, is ever present before the Lord as the propitiation. With this we should compare the use of the cognate verb in Hebrews 2:17 and cognate substantive Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5. From these passages it is clear that in N. T. the word is closely connected with that special form of expiation which takes place by means of an offering or sacrifice, although this idea is not of necessity included in the radical signification of the word itself. See notes in all three places.


Better Translations of 1 John 2:2

New American Bible
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

NET Bible
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.

New Revised Standard Version
and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Berean Standard Bible
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

International Standard Version
It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.

Here is the only other use from 1 John 4:10 that the NASB translated as propitiation.

Below love is used 13 times which is the overwhelming evidence it means atoning sacrifice, expiation and not propitiation which would be in direct contradiction to the context of the passage and Johns emphasis on Gods love used 13 times in the passage. Context determines the meaning of a word and its clear from the context hilasmos means expiation and not propitiation.

1 John 4:7-12
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for lovecomes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we lovedGod, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV

Now here is the interesting thing its used in the context of Gods love, not Gods anger/wrath that needs appeasing. There are better translations of the Greek word below. The "context" makes it clear in 1 John 4 that its Gods love and not His anger/wrath that needs appeasing that is the emphasis in the passage.

New International Version
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New American Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.

NET Bible
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

New Revised Standard Version
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrificefor our sins.

hope this helps !!!

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The resurrection of Christ causes the regeneration of those He saved by His death 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Blessed [gratefully praised and adored] be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant and boundless mercy has caused us to be born again [that is, to be reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] to an ever-living hope and confident assurance through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How should we answer this?

Paul's answer to Pagan questions was: "Jesus Christ and HIM crucified". It's the Holy SPirit who CONVINCES, not us, or our great Theological reasonings. when the Pagan says "I don't understand why - bla, bla, bla", he doesn't with his human ming see why God did this or that. But when the Holy Spirit convicts them of SIN, then it's repentance, and calling on God time.

Regarding animal sacrifices prior to Jesus’ death, I think these are analogous to credit cards. Credit cards don’t actually pay for anything, but they allow you to walk out of the store with your desired object until you have the money to pay for it. Likewise, animal sacrifices never discharged our sin-debt before God (Hebrews 10:4), but they were a sign to God that you were repentant and trusted in Him for salvation. God retroactively applied Jesus’ sacrifice to these Old Testament individuals.

That's a sensible way to explain it.

It has nothing to do with "Forgiveness", though. God DOES FORGIVE US, but that in itself doesn't handle the existence of the SIN, which is what Jesus' sacrifice took care of.

 

[civic]

Paul's answer to Pagan questions was: "Jesus Christ and HIM crucified". It's the Holy SPirit who CONVINCES, not us, or our great Theological reasonings. when the Pagan says "I don't understand why - bla, bla, bla", he doesn't with his human ming see why God did this or that. But when the Holy Spirit convicts them of SIN, then it's repentance, and calling on God time.

That's a sensible way to explain it.

It has nothing to do with "Forgiveness", though. God DOES FORGIVE US, but that in itself doesn't handle the existence of the SIN, which is what Jesus' sacrifice took care of.

Amen

 

[TedT]

Theology by analogy is a poor way to understand the Bible.

That's why Jesus taught by parables....

 

[TomL]

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The resurrection of Christ causes the regeneration of those He saved by His death 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Blessed [gratefully praised and adored] be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant and boundless mercy has caused us to be born again [that is, to be reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] to an ever-living hope and confident assurance through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

No one is saved by his death

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[civic]

That's why Jesus taught by parables....

Yep

 

[civic]

No one is saved by his death

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Amen

 

[TomL]

Amen

In fact

1 Corinthians 15:14–19 (KJV 1900) — 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

No one is saved by his death

The utmost contempt for the Saving Death of Christ, 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes[Death] ye were healed.

The word healed here is the greek word iaomai :

1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
   
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

According to Peter, how were they healed /brought about their Salvation ?

 

[TomL]

@TomL



The utmost blasphemy and contempt for the Saving Death of Christ, 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes[Death] ye were healed.
The word healed here is the greek word iaomai :

1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
   
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

According to Peter, how were they healed /brought about their Salvation ?

Can you not read

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

Can you not read

Romans 5:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That verse says nothing about Christs death saved no one. In fact it says His death reconciled to God, thats salvation !

 

[TomL]

That verse says nothing about Christs death saved no one. In fact it says His death reconciled to God, thats salvation !

Where the word not large enough?

much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And you left off the following
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You did not present the whole story

 

[brightfame52]

Where the word not large enough?

much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And you left off the following
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You did not present the whole story

Again, you interjected the Christ dishonoring comment " Christ death saved no one" Rom 5:10 doesnt make such a hellish remark, it says the reconciled by His death shall also be saved by His Live, that's two positive saving statements about the Work of Christ, of what He did and is going to do.

 

[TomL]

Again, you interjected the Christ dishonoring comment " Christ death saved no one" Rom 5:10 doesnt make such a hellish remark, it says the reconciled by His death shall also be saved by His Live, that's two positive saving statements about the Work of Christ, of what He did and is going to do.

Don't like scripture?

Where the word not large enough?

much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And you left off the following
2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You did not present the whole story

 

[civic]

Again, you interjected the Christ dishonoring comment " Christ death saved no one" Rom 5:10 doesnt make such a hellish remark, it says the reconciled by His death shall also be saved by His Live, that's two positive saving statements about the Work of Christ, of what He did and is going to do.

You dishonor Christs life and resurrection

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.


Romans 4:24-25


 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.


John 11:25-26


 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”


We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.