dwight92070
Well-known member
Wow, I see 5-6 posts all having to do with Calvinism. It looks like the Calvinists are trying to take over here. Good luck with that! You will need luck, cuz you're not going to get God's help.
Calvinism is Gospel !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Calvinists want us to wallow in their totally depraved religion with them, when we can instead reflect the Light of Christ as images of God. How stupid do they think we are?
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Wrong... Jesus is the Light.
In John 1:6–9, the apostle explains that John the Baptist was merely a witness to the light, but Jesus is the true light: “There was a man sent from God whose name was John [the Baptist]. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
Calvinism Presents the True Doctrine of Jesus Christ. As far as I can see, the Jesus you calling the light, is a dumb idol. Did your Jesus die specifically for His Sheep and save them ? If you present a jesus that died for all mankind, and made salvation possible, thats a dumb idol
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WORNG AGAIN. Your batting a thousand. I'm calling Jesus in John 1:6–9 the light. You know...the Jesus you are calling a dumb idol? Thats going to go bad for you at the when we all get here.
2 Corinthians 5:10
I'm quoting the apostle John.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. [Mal. 3:1.]
7 This man came to witness, that he might testify of the Light, that all men might believe in it [adhere to it, trust it, and rely upon it] through him.
8 He was not the Light himself, but came that he might bear witness regarding the Light.
9 There it was—the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person. [Isa. 49:6.]
John 1:6–9.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I'm quoting the apostle John.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. [Mal. 3:1.]
7 This man came to witness, that he might testify of the Light, that all men might believe in it [adhere to it, trust it, and rely upon it] through him.
8 He was not the Light himself, but came that he might bear witness regarding the Light.
9 There it was—the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person. [Isa. 49:6.]
John 1:6–9.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry but to your delusion those scriptures support Tulip!
No wonder @brightfame52 was "'persecuted' out of a fundamental bible college" as he said he was. It all makes sense now.
Johann
Well-known member
Incorrect.
John 1:6–9 does not support the doctrines of TULIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints), especially in the Calvinistic sense. Let’s analyze why:
1) The Universal Illumination of Christ Contradicts Limited Atonement
Verse 9 states that Christ is the true Light that illuminates every person (φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, phōtizei panta anthrōpon).
If Calvinism’s doctrine of Limited Atonement were true, this verse should say that Christ illumines only the elect. Instead, the text states that every human being receives this illumination, which is contrary to the Calvinist belief that Christ only grants saving grace to the elect.
Isaiah 49:6, which is referenced, speaks of the Messiah being a light to the nations, showing a universal offer of salvation rather than a limited application.
2) The Conditional Nature of Belief Contradicts Irresistible Grace
Verse 7 states, “that all men might believe in it [the Light] through him”.
The subjunctive mood (ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν, hina pantes pisteusōsin) expresses potentiality, not necessity—it shows an intended result, not a guaranteed one.
This contradicts the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace, which claims that the elect will believe without fail. Instead, the verse shows that belief is the intended purpose but not an inevitable outcome.
3) The Role of John the Baptist Shows Means of Grace, Not Unconditional Election
John was sent (ἀπεσταλμένος, apestalmenos) as a witness, indicating that people needed an external testimony to believe.
If Unconditional Election were true (where God elects people apart from any external means), why would God send John as a witness? The necessity of a witness undermines the claim that election is an absolute, unilateral act without human response.
John 1:6–9 refutes Limited Atonement by affirming Christ's illumination of every person.
It refutes Irresistible Grace by showing that belief is intended but not automatic.
It undermines Unconditional Election by demonstrating that God's means of grace (John’s witness) is necessary for faith.
Thus, rather than supporting TULIP, this passage stands against its core tenets and affirms that God's grace is offered universally, but individuals are responsible for responding to it.
You are not here for a real discussion; you're just repeating the same clichés. I doubt you've actually read Calvin or his Institutes with a careful and critical eye.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Um there is no mention of the elect or sheep
John 1:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Johann
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those verses are about all the elect, the sheep. Look at vs 7
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Only the Sheep shall believe, everyone else, believe not because they not Sheep Jn 10:16,26-27
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
All others God has appointed to unbelief/disobedience 1 Pet 2:8
8 nd a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
The word disobedient is the greek word ἀπειθέω: and means
Disobey, be disobedient, refuse to believe
Meaning: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
Its Gods will that they dont believe in Christ, His appointment, so Jn 1:7 excludes them my friend.
You forget about the lost sheep. How did they get lost in the first place? Did their calvinism fail them.
Johann
Well-known member
Incorrect.
John 1:7 and Universal Appeal: John 1:7 states, "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe." The phrase "all men" (πᾶς ἄνθρωπος, pas anthrōpos) here suggests a universal opportunity to believe, not limited to an elect group. If the intention was to limit the scope of salvation solely to the elect, the phrase would be more narrowly defined, or there would be other clarifications in the surrounding text to that effect. Instead, John’s Gospel consistently presents the availability of belief to everyone, even as it acknowledges that not all will believe (e.g., John 1:11, 3:19, 12:37). The "might believe" (ἵνα πιστεύσῃ, hina pisteusē) in verse 7 suggests that belief is a potential outcome for all who encounter the Light, not an automatic result for a predetermined group.
John 10:16 and the Sheep: You reference John 10:16, which speaks of "other sheep" who are "not of this fold" and will hear the voice of the shepherd. However, this does not support the idea that John 1:7 only refers to the elect. In John 10, Jesus specifically speaks of Gentiles who will also be included in the fold, which is expanded beyond just the Jewish people (the initial "fold"). It does not indicate that belief is restricted solely to the elect, but rather that all who are called will believe, including those outside the initial scope of the Jewish fold.
John 10:26-27: While John 10:26–27 contrasts those who do not believe because they are "not of my sheep" with those who do hear the voice of the shepherd, this must be understood in light of the invitation to all.
The point in John 10 is not that God predestines certain people to unbelief, but that those who belong to Him—those who are His sheep—will hear His voice and follow Him.
The rejection of others does not mean that they are predestined to disobedience from the outset; rather, their unbelief is a result of their rejection of the gospel, as seen in other texts like John 5:40, where people are unwilling to come to Jesus for life.
1 Peter 2:8 and Disobedience: In 1 Peter 2:8, the term ἀπειθέω (to disobey, to refuse to believe) describes the response of those who reject the gospel, but this should not be construed as divine appointment to unbelief.
The text emphasizes that people stumble because they reject Christ, not because God predestines them to do so.
The context of 1 Peter highlights that Christ is a stumbling stone for those who do not believe, but it is the result of their disobedience, not an arbitrary divine decree that they will remain in disobedience. The New Testament consistently affirms the free offer of the gospel to all (e.g., Matthew 11:28, Acts 17:30–31), and the judgment for unbelief comes as a consequence of rejecting that offer.
The Will of God and Unbelief: While it is true that God has set apart His elect (Ephesians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13), the Bible also teaches that God's will is for all people to come to repentance (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). God's desire is that all be saved, though not all will respond (Matthew 23:37). This tension is not an indication of contradictory wills but rather highlights the reality of human free will in responding to God's call.
In conclusion, while John 1:7 presents the universal offer of salvation through the Light, John 10:26-27 and 1 Peter 2:8 are more about the responses of people to the message of the gospel. The rejection of some is not a preordained fate but the result of their disobedience and rejection of God's grace.
Therefore, John 1:7 is not exclusive to the elect but speaks to the universal availability of the gospel to all people, even though not everyone will accept it.
How hard is this to understand?
J.
Calvinism is not the Gospel. Calvinism is a Totally Depraved Ideology, started by a totally depraved individual named Calvin, that preys on unsuspecting people and transforms them into totally depraved subjects.
Johann
Well-known member
Ask any born-again believer who was ensnared by this trap and was delivered by God's mercy.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
You have it right in front of your eyes but cannot connect the dots and the highlighted blue is incorrect, you read your own presuppositions into the text friend.
J.
Duane
Member
Johann
Well-known member
The Lost Sheep
They wander through the fields of thought,
Where truths were sown but soon forgot,
The shepherd calls, His voice so clear,
Yet echoes fade, and none appear.
How did they stray, those sheep once near?
Did grace grow cold, did love disappear?
The path was set, the way was true,
Yet lost they roam, without a clue.
Bridge:
Perhaps it's not the fault of fate,
Nor doctrines firm that seal their state—
But hearts that stray, a will that bends,
Can wander far, beyond the end.
Did Calvin’s claim, so tightly spun,
Presume that all would soon be won?
But in this maze, what lies in wait,
But freedom lost, and hearts sedate?
Chorus:
Return, O lost, to pasture green,
The Shepherd’s arms will still be seen.
His call still echoes through the night,
For those who seek will find the light.
J.
Nice poem.
It's "hearts that stray, a will that bends" that is at fault for them being lost and it's up to the sheep to "return, O lost, to pasture green".
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