Calvin on unlimited atonement

[brightfame52]

Um the house of Israel is not mentioned

Nor was the house of Israel all saved.

Its implied, who else is the New Covenant for ? Yes all Israel is saved as promised Rom 11:26

26 ;And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So what does all mean now ?

 

[TomL]

Its implied, who else is the New Covenant for ? Yes all Israel is saved as promised Rom 11:26

26 ;And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So what does all mean now ?

If you believe it refers to all Jews throughout all ages, what do you do with the salvation of all men?

But considering

Romans 11:25–26 (LEB) — 25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, “The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

All Israel All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that "every Israelite should have part in the future age." (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time, rejected and lost. But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which "the Father hath put in his own power;" <Acts 1:7>. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time. (from Barnes’ Notes)

 

[TomL]

Again its Salvation, the all [jew/gentile] are successfully drawn UNTO HIM !

Really, so you now believe all are saved, none lost?

 

[TomL]

Its implied, who else is the New Covenant for ? Yes all Israel is saved as promised Rom 11:26

26 ;And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So what does all mean now ?

Do these sound saved?

Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

If you believe it refers to all Jews throughout all ages, what do you do with the salvation of all men?

no I dont believe that it refers to all jews, but I believe it refers to the all of Jn 12:32

So what do you believe the all Israel shall be saved mean ? Notice the word ALL since you love to zero in on it with Jn 12:32

 

[brightfame52]

Really, so you now believe all are saved, none lost?

Thats not what I said.

 

[brightfame52]

Do these sound saved?

Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

The New Covenant is promised to a particular people, The House of Israel. Christs Blood was shed in accordance with that Covenant Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins here was promised in that New Covenant Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[TomL]

The New Covenant is promised to a particular people, The House of Israel. Christs Blood was shed in accordance with that Covenant Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins here was promised in that New Covenant Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

 

[TomL]

Thats not what I said.

Oh, so then you affirm this drawing is not irresistible, contrary to traditional Calvinism.

John 6:44 (LEB) — 44 No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[TomL]

@TomL


no I dont believe that it refers to all jews, but I believe it refers to the all of Jn 12:32

So what do you believe the all Israel shall be saved mean ? Notice the word ALL since you love to zero in on it with Jn 12:32

You did say it refers to the house of Israel

Do you want to explain what you meant then?

Regarding

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

It does not state all Israel shall be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

The New Covenant is promised to a particular people, Also what does all mean here since you like to run to the word all all the time. Rom 11:26

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Does it mean the same as here Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[brightfame52]

You did say it refers to the house of Israel

Do you want to explain what you meant then?

Regarding

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

It does not state all Israel shall be saved.

No you explain what it means, you always running to get Jn 12:32 or the word all. What does all mean in Jn 12:32 and then in Rom 11:26 ?

 

[TomL]

No you explain what it means, you always running to get Jn 12:32 or the word all. What does all mean in Jn 12:32 and then in Rom 11:26 ?

You are running

Unlike you, however, I will state

It means Christ will have his disciples preach the gospel to all and provide salvation for all who believe

As for Rom 11:26 I believe in the future, from Paul's writing, there will be a widespread salvation of Israelites

when the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

 

[TomL]

The New Covenant is promised to a particular people, Also what does all mean here since you like to run to the word all all the time. Rom 11:26

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Does it mean the same as here Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You are running again, and this has been addressed in another post

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

As for Rom 11:26 I believe in the future, from Paul's writing, there will be a widespread salvation of Israelites

So all Israelites without exception are going to be saved in the future ? Thats what you believe

 

[brightfame52]

You are running again, and this has been addressed in another post

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

So does all mean all without exception in Rom 11:26 ? In the future every single Israelite will be saved, correct. What about the ones in Acts 7:51-53 ? They Israelites correct ?

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

Yep, isnt He being lifted up to shed His Blood for the New Covenant Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[TomL]

So does all mean all without exception in Rom 11:26 ? In the future every single Israelite will be saved, correct. What about the ones in Acts 7:51-53 ? They Israelites correct ?

Already spoken of elsewhere

Address what was asked of you

You are running again, and this has been addressed in another post

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

 

[brightfame52]

Already spoken of elsewhere

Address what was asked of you

You are running again, and this has been addressed in another post

Stick to the point raised.

Do these sound saved?

John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

You claimed the above verse refers to the house of Israel.

And you believe drawing is irresistible.

So answer the question raised


Acts 7:51–53 (LEB) — 51 “You stiff-necked people and uncircumcised in hearts and in your ears! You constantly resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so also do you! 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it!”

Acts 28:24–28 (LEB) — 24 And some were convinced by what was said, but others refused to believe. 25 So being in disagreement with one another, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through the prophet Isaiah to your fathers, 26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing and will never understand, and you will keep on seeing and will never perceive. 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they hear with difficulty, and they have shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” ’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They also will listen!”

No you havent. Will all Jews without exception be saved according to Rom 11:26 ? Yes or No Since you always running to get Jn 12:32 to say all mankind without exception are being drawn to Christ.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



So all Israelites without exception are going to be saved in the future ? Thats what you believe

Not necessarily.

Israel must be defined as either a true spiritual house of Israel or a physical body of Israelites

I merely hold to a widespread salvation and go no further