Are you actually Protestant?
- Thread starter PapaLandShark
- Start date
You need to be clear about what you mean by "contributing". For example, a friend of mine introduced me to the Gospel. Would I be saved without that introduction? Was that a "contribution" to my salvation?
As for Mary, would I be saved without her giving birth to Jesus? You could say that God could have chosen another woman. Well, would I be saved without that other woman giving birth to Jesus?
I dont. I let Jesus speak through the sources of truth HE appointed
- I listen to Those SENT to preach.
- To the truth THEY hand down by word of mouth.
- Those given power to bind and loose, so Jesus speaks through them to settle disputes. Without them you have no scripture.
- The pillar of truth - the household of God.
All of those are gospel.
You just speak for yourself , the divisive faith of the reformationists , a kingdom divided on itself with its unbiblical man made traditions like sola scriptura!
you forget , I was a Protestant for 20 years until it became obvious their faith falls apart on study of ACTUAL history AND scripture.
civic
Well-known member
Where does scripture say these points you made are the gospel ?
Can you point me to the specific passages that say they are the gospel ?
1- To the truth THEY hand down by word of mouth.
2- Those given power to bind and loose, so Jesus speaks through them to settle disputes. Without them you have no scripture.
3- The pillar of truth - the household of God.
I agree terminology is a problem, the problem is most of the arguments are intebded as insults.
And yet.
If you look at catholic Mary, she is “kechairotomene “ perfected in grace.
So first,
We honour her as Mother of Lord and call her Blessed .( a biblical obligation! )
Second we ask her to “pray for us“ and that is all.
The prayers of saints are at the altar of God, and we know as a davidic queen and at Cana, the king honours her requests. His time has now come.
How is asking someone to “ pray for us “, and knowing God answers prayer, in any way equivalent to making her a goddess or worshipping her? Latria vs hyperdulia.
Does Frank believe he is worshippinh his own friends if he asks them to pray for him? Does he think it makes his friends Gods ?
Of course not. He intended it as an insult.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus also says blessed are the poor in spirit. So all believers are blessed.
He also said all these are blessed too
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Google’s your friend here. There is nothing obscure.
how can they preach if not sent romans10:15 elsewhere you see apostles appointing and sending to preach
stay true to tradition ( paradosis means handed down) 2 thes 2:15
bind and loose ( Peter) Matt 16:19 - elsewhere apostles jointly
church is pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15
so Take disputes matt18:15 to church, linked to power to bind and loose
But it’s what early fathers say this all means.
iraneus refers the entire succession to his day, and of bishops of Rome , he lists the,, and the need To stay true to tradition( faith handed down) , and the preeminence of Rome. Long before there was a new testament!
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civic
Well-known member
Thanks as we see no verse equates your assertion with the gospel.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
In this quote, Mary is replacing the role of the Holy Spirit by giving birth to believers.
In this quote it says she did not lay aside this saving office. However, the scripture does not provide any proof of any such saving office attributed to Mary.
It’s a pity you cant understand what is written , and seemingly you don’t know scripture either.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
It's obvious from your responses that I am right, and you have nothing left to trade but insults.
I know from the past I am wasting my time with dishonest people . Where does it mention “ goddesses” ? It does not
Without Mary there is no Christ . Without Christ there is no salvation . She clearly “
Joined in”
Mary is clearly intercessor and designated “ mother of Christ “ and elsewhere her “ offspring are those who keep the commandments “ só mother of church.
Her prayers are powerful and instrumental in others receiving grace - if you believe in prayer which you don’t seemingly
It doesn’t matter what you think scripture means . Listen to those who were sent .
Every verse is exactly as stated. Indeed it is how the early church understood it .
so we return to the question.
How do we know how to interpret scripture.
and the answer is the reverse of protestant belief.
It is because it lines up with tradition - the faith handed down by those sent to preach and decide.
Scripture is in essence tradition committed to paper. So what the early fathers think it meant matters,
it is pointless arguing with protestants.
They think their personal interpretation trumps the sources Jesus gave.
You never answer.
if sola scriptura were true, why do you all disagree on what it means, and Schism ad infinitum?
The answer to that question leads back to rome.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Mary gave birth to Jesus. However, before Mary gave birth a "holy thing" was placed inside Mary.
The divine nature of Jesus is what brings us salvation. Mary gave birth, her role is over.
Adding to scripture in this instance ends up making Mary equal to God.
Thus it ends up amounting to Goddess worship.
As it is written, abstain even from the appearance of evil, but the Catholic Church refuses.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I'm protestant to Catholics, but not Protestants. lol.
Let's go through the terms used. As a non-Catholic, I'll give you my personal view on the following phrases:
"saving office":
I wish that term would be better explained in the quote. Do they mean her "intercessions" or do they mean something beyond that? I have no problem with her interceding for us.
"Advocate":
Is this talking about her intercessions? This needs to be clearly defined by Catholics.
"Helper":
Helper in what sense?
"Benefactress":
We certainly can benefit from another's intercessions, especially from one who was and is close to Jesus.
"Mediatrix":
Jesus is the only Mediator between us and God the Father. She cannot be a Mediator between us and God the Father but that doesn't exclude her from being a Mediator between us and Jesus.
Conclusion: phrases/terms are being used on all sides without explicit and agreed upon definitions.
civic
Well-known member
I’m not talking about Sola scripture. You claimed your points were biblical that I challenged and to provide verses that said your points were mentioned with the good news. You have yet to prove they are biblical in origin.
Brakelite
Active member
Anything, or anyone, instead of Christ, fits the definition of Antichrist.
Brakelite
Active member
If anyone has any doubts as to whether Catholicism has intended to exalt Mary, or merely a figment of Protestant imaginations, read the following,
KJV Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
and compare with the Jesuit Douay Bible.
KJV Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
and compare with the Jesuit Douay Bible.
