Assumption
Are you a hyper Calvinist ?
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atpollard
Well-known member
Indeed.
“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
I assume that when Jesus stated “No one can come to Me”, what he REALLY MEANT was that no person at all was able to come to Jesus … that every person without exception was unable to come to Jesus … in exactly the same way those that Jesus just told to “stop grumbling” in the prior verse were demonstrating their inability to come to Jesus … unless SOMETHING HAPPENED (which the rest of the verse goes on to describe). What Jesus just stated affirms the same truth found elsewhere in scripture that the Doctrines of Grace describe as TOTAL INABILITY, the theological doctrine stating that “human beings are incapable of turning to God without divine intervention”. So, I placed the descriptor “Total Inability” as an inline exegesis in brackets.
So now it is your turn to tell me what YOU assume Jesus meant when he stated “No man can come to Me”. (And we can see how reasonable your assumptions are.)
Here is how they could comeIndeed.
“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
I assume that when Jesus stated “No one can come to Me”, what he REALLY MEANT was that no person at all was able to come to Jesus … that every person without exception was unable to come to Jesus … in exactly the same way those that Jesus just told to “stop grumbling” in the prior verse were demonstrating their inability to come to Jesus … unless SOMETHING HAPPENED (which the rest of the verse goes on to describe). What Jesus just stated affirms the same truth found elsewhere in scripture that the Doctrines of Grace describe as TOTAL INABILITY, the theological doctrine stating that “human beings are incapable of turning to God without divine intervention”. So, I placed the descriptor “Total Inability” as an inline exegesis in brackets.
So now it is your turn to tell me what YOU assume Jesus meant when he stated “No man can come to Me”. (And we can see how reasonable your assumptions are.)
John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
One must hear and then it is up to them to learn then they may come
Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
atpollard
Well-known member
Respectfully, that FOLLOWS the unless of John 6:44 unless you are arguing that those that were rebuked for “grumbling” in the immediately preceding verses “heard and learned from the Father” to grumble and came to Jesus because the Father “drew” them specifically TO GRUMBLE.
In any event, by pitting scripture against scripture, your assumption regarding Jesus claim that “No man can come to me [unless something]” is that Jesus misspoke and the claim was false … that EVERYONE can come to him. Is that correct? Is that not what your response “Here is how they could come” means when Jesus stated “No man can come to me”?
Um it is not pitting scripture against scripture at all
I affirm no one could come to Christ unless he was drawn by the father at that time
The drawing would be by revelation
If One heard this revelation and learned from it they could come.
Man's ability to believe is seen in the following verses
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
atpollard
Well-known member
We were discussing my inline exegesis of John 6:44 and your accusation that it was mere "assumption".
We only got as far as the first inline exegesis.
I am a bit confused by Post #85.
Does ...
... mean that you acknowledge that my inline exegesis "No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY]" is in fact correct exegesis of John 6:44, or does the wall of text that follows mean that we have abandoned discussing my exegesis of John 6:44 and moved on to "Calvinism cannot be true because [scripture pong]!"
I just need to know whether to move on to the second inline exegesis or walk away because we are finished and it is not my job to convince you that the Bible is true. (I am only required to give a defense for what I believe, which I was and am prepared to do).
No having a need for revelation is not support for your doctrine of total inability
Total inability state only through first being regenerated can man believe
But the bible shows faith precedes regeneration (the impartation of life)
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith
Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
God regenerates those he has forgiven
foregiveness requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
atpollard
Well-known member
I defined "Total Inability" in my response.
Note the quotations, that was not MY definition, but THE definition quoted verbatim from an authoritative source. Opponents of "Total Inability" do not get to define what advocates mean by the term "Total Inability" just as I do not get to define what anyone means by "Free Will" or "Arminianism".
Here is the definition from Got Questions: "Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18)." [link] which makes no claim that regeneration must precede belief.
This discussion by Ligonier Ministries describes "Total Moral Inability" and makes no mention of "regeneration".
So you are beating to death a STRAWMAN.
I never claimed what you are refuting as you have no right to redefine my beliefs.
However, we have clearly abandoned the false claims concerning EXEGESIS and are merely arguing who is correct.
As stated previously, convincing you that the Bible is true is NOT my job.
Thank you for the conversation and enjoy life.
(When we are both perfected, you will see that I was right about John 6:44 ... I have plenty of things to be wrong about, but that just doesn't happen to be one of them.)
Um not being able to believe apart from revelation is not Total inability
Um
The Doctrine of Total Inability
Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel - he needs the Spirit of God to cause him to be born again.A fuller dcefinition from the same site
Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
So are you claiming given revelation man can believe previous to regeneration?This discussion by Ligonier Ministries describes "Total Moral Inability" and makes no mention of "regeneration".
So you are beating to death a STRAWMAN.
I never claimed what you are refuting as you have no right to redefine my beliefs.
However, we have clearly abandoned the false claims concerning EXEGESIS and are merely arguing who is correct.
As stated previously, convincing you that the Bible is true is NOT my job.
Thank you for the conversation and enjoy life.
(When we are both perfected, you will see that I was right about John 6:44 ... I have plenty of things to be wrong about, but that just doesn't happen to be one of them.)
Affirming that faith precedes regeneration?
The questions were
So are you claiming given revelation man can believe previous to regeneration?
Affirming that faith precedes regeneration?
BTW from Ligonier ministries
Fallen in Adam, all people are born dead in sins and trespasses and are incapable of spiritual renewal. Scripture teaches that regeneration (the new birth) is an essential part of the redeeming work of God in Christ. Spiritually dead men and women are utterly dependent on God to sovereignly give them spiritual life. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration inasmuch as He convicts people of their sinful condition, of the wrath to come, and of their need for Christ. In the new birth, the Spirit implants in the souls of God’s people new wills, affections, and desires. Scripture often speaks of regeneration under the figure of spiritual resurrection. This connects regeneration to the resurrection of Christ. By union with Christ, believers experience the application of what Christ accomplished in His life, death, and resurrection. Regeneration precedes faith, for no one can believe in Christ until they are given new hearts by the Spirit of God
Regeneration
Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.
learn.ligonier.org
atpollard
Well-known member
We have clearly abandoned the false claims concerning EXEGESIS and are merely arguing who is correct. As stated previously, convincing you that the Bible is true is NOT my job.The questions were
So are you claiming given revelation man can believe previous to regeneration?
Affirming that faith precedes regeneration?
BTW from Ligonier ministries
Fallen in Adam, all people are born dead in sins and trespasses and are incapable of spiritual renewal. Scripture teaches that regeneration (the new birth) is an essential part of the redeeming work of God in Christ. Spiritually dead men and women are utterly dependent on God to sovereignly give them spiritual life. The Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration inasmuch as He convicts people of their sinful condition, of the wrath to come, and of their need for Christ. In the new birth, the Spirit implants in the souls of God’s people new wills, affections, and desires. Scripture often speaks of regeneration under the figure of spiritual resurrection. This connects regeneration to the resurrection of Christ. By union with Christ, believers experience the application of what Christ accomplished in His life, death, and resurrection. Regeneration precedes faith, for no one can believe in Christ until they are given new hearts by the Spirit of God
that is total inabilityRegeneration
Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.
Thank you for the conversation and enjoy life.
(When we are both perfected, you will see that I was right about John 6:44 ... I have plenty of things to be wrong about, but that just doesn't happen to be one of them.)
Horatius
Member
I'm a mellow non-denominational that loves Jesus.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
I believe the bible is true. I just do not believe your interpretation however isWe have clearly abandoned the false claims concerning EXEGESIS and are merely arguing who is correct. As stated previously, convincing you that the Bible is true is NOT my job.
Thank you for the conversation and enjoy life.
(When we are both perfected, you will see that I was right about John 6:44 ... I have plenty of things to be wrong about, but that just doesn't happen to be one of them.)
Nor is your understanding consistent with the Calvinist definition of total inability
.
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