Are we Predestined?

[atpollard]

but they are completely unable to do anything that merits salvation

Few would disagree with the first part (Full Pelagians do, but they deny that mankind fell with Adam and believe that living sinless is possible).

or even to turn to God on their own.

I suspect most disagreements arise over the second part (which is not unreasonable given the ample scripture that "there is nothing good in me" and I am called to "choose life" [thus, the discussion rages on and on and on ...]

 

[atpollard]

I don't see any so-called reformed person taking issue with the above- its a good summary.

but you left out the teaching of men as a dead corpse in their natural state . wink wink

We really need to rip Ephesians out of the Bible and end all this "dead" nonsense once and for all. right?
I mean, what the heck was Paul thinking, anyway!

... and Romans 9 (people always get that Potter stuff all wrong, too).

 

[FreeInChrist]

Few would disagree with the first part (Full Pelagians do, but they deny that mankind fell with Adam and believe that living sinless is possible).


I suspect most disagreements arise over the second part (which is not unreasonable given the ample scripture that "there is nothing good in me" and I am called to "choose life" [thus, the discussion rages on and on and on ...]

I am not into self deprecating confessions on a forum where those with baited breath are all ready to tar and feather me if they could but let me just say There was nothing good in me... nada, zero, zilch (sp?) for much of my life... yet I held faith that Jesus shed His blood for me.... In my early 20s I believe I received the Holy Spirit because I found I could pray in the unknown tongue
after my belief... yet that did nothing to alter my wretchedness. During my life God the Father had my back 3 times that I specifically know of.... they were provable times... they were important to me, and they were certainly unmerited in the wretch that I now know I was.

I was at the age of around 37 when the 2nd time God the Father answered prayer.... and I have had many tell me I should not have asked for what I did the way I did but I did and it was then that I did a 180 on my worst areas of my life.... yet there still was work to do.
I did this because I had decided I wanted to Grow close to God and I did.... but 24 years later I slipped back into old habits... and it was at that time I got my 3rd miracle from the Heavenly Father.... but this time I just did not have the strength or willpower to stop as I did before and it was about 10 or 12 years ago that I got SO convicted by the Holy Spirit !!!!!!! So much so
that I had zero doubt about what was going on. If I had been hit over the head with a ballpeen hammer or mace it would not have shocked me as what happened with my conviction did. And it was after that that I went about becoming the person God wants me to be. Repentance was my only thought. And apologetic confession(s) . And the Holy Spirit went to work in me and on me and I grew and I grew some more... Am I perfect today. NO... but I am working on it.

Now I said all of this to tell you that if I had been predestined the way most believe... the way my church believes.... in it I certainly would not have lived my life the way I had. But the Father knew, by his foreknowledge that I would accept Jesus sacrifice and that I would choose life.

I have no idea why the Holy Spirit did not convict me the same way earlier in my life (Only God the Father knows)but I sure am glad He did it eventually

It was by my free will that I chose life. ... and by my free will I almost lost it until.......

Calvin was wrong. He was a very studied man and spent most time studying scripture. He was a minister and of course those who he preached to would have listened and believed.... But Calvins problem... the same as all those who tech predestination is they preach the written word from their own understanding leaving out the human factor.

I have rambled enough

 

[Jim]

Just to be clear, what is the doctrine of "Total Depravity"?
[I know what I think it says, but wanted to hear what you think it means and what makes it the "biggest [slap] in the face of God".]

Total depravity is the assertion that every aspect of human nature is corrupted by sin, rendering every individual incapable of righteousness or seeking salvation without direct and individually directed divine intervention and this not of their own doing but as a result of the divinely imputation of the sin of Adam upon the whole of humanity.

Any way that you look at it the cause lies at God's feet, not man's. Add to that the whole concept of regeneration versus reprobation being totally at the whim of God's own sovereign will having nothing whatsoever to do with the individual. Every single human being has been sold by God into slavery to Satan with even a desire to be set free.

All of that of course is absolutely false and thus as I said is perhaps the biggest slap in God's face.

 

[Jim]

We really need to rip Ephesians out of the Bible and end all this "dead" nonsense once and for all. right?
I mean, what the heck was Paul thinking, anyway!

... and Romans 9 (people always get that Potter stuff all wrong, too).

But all that Potter stuff has nothing to do with eternal life of the clay, but rather, only how the Potter uses some of that clay in this life.

 

[atpollard]

But all that Potter stuff has nothing to do with eternal life of the clay, but rather, only how the Potter uses some of that clay in this life.

See, you just proved my point ... OTHER "people are always getting that potter stuff wrong".

 

[atpollard]

Total depravity is the assertion that every aspect of human nature is corrupted by sin, rendering every individual incapable of righteousness or seeking salvation without direct and individually directed divine intervention and this not of their own doing but as a result of the divinely imputation of the sin of Adam upon the whole of humanity.

Any way that you look at it the cause lies at God's feet, not man's. Add to that the whole concept of regeneration versus reprobation being totally at the whim of God's own sovereign will having nothing whatsoever to do with the individual. Every single human being has been sold by God into slavery to Satan with even a desire to be set free.

All of that of course is absolutely false and thus as I said is perhaps the biggest slap in God's face.

Thank you for the explanation.

Personally, I see Total Depravity more like:
"Romans 1:18-32 describes what happens if God sits back and does nothing ... People are able to damn themselves just fine. So God must roll up His sleeves and do John 6:44-45 and Ephesians 2:1-10 if God wants ANYONE to be saved."
... but that is just me.

 

[Presby02]

I firmly believe there have been through history starting with Adam, and Noah, and Abraham, and Daniel, and Job, and Isaiah, and Nicodemus, and the 12 disciples, and not least Mary, and Joseph, and Paul, and the Jailor, and Cornelius, and Crispus, and Stephanus, and also Lydia, and the woman who touched Jesus hem for healing, and Jude of the 12, and most importantly Jesus
and many others that have not sprung to mind at the moment....... that these people were without question , absolutely predestined for the very reason that they were needed for God's over all plan that he designed and He dare not leave it to chance for he needed things done as he planned them..... OH... Jeremiah too... and Enoch, and on and on..... David....the thief...
possibly the second most important after Jesus was Joseph of Arimathea

These all had a specific purpose or job.

Now Presby02, tell me. Do you believe you have been given a specific job to do for God? If so, my hat is off to you. If not, then I do not believe common man is predestined the way that you do.

Every Christain has been given gifts to use, a specific job, as you put it.

What do you mean by "common man"?

 

[Presby02]

Nor His foreknowledge.

Well educate me. I am listening

 

[Presby02]

If that is true, then how can God condemn anyone who has chosen not to believe in Him if that is what God determined that he choose?

Because they are a sinner. We are all sinners. Because God chooses to pardon some does not make Him unfair. He does not have to pardon anyone.

 

[Presby02]

Because…”…the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit…” (Rom 14:17)

Doug

Umm...that does not say those things could not be part of the plan. Communion is eating and drinking. Part of the plan.

 

[Presby02]

Not if God preordained it. But if God simply foresees it, the choice is made freely. Judas is responsible for, because he didn’t have to do it, but chose to. God simply knew what he would choose.


Doug

Acts 4 does not say God foreknew what Judas would do and simply adopted it as His plan. It says specifically that He planned, DETERMINED and brought about by His hand. So Judas was determined and yet held responsible.

 

[Jim]

Because they are a sinner. We are all sinners. Because God chooses to pardon some does not make Him unfair. He does not have to pardon anyone.

According to determinists, God is the cause of everything, thus even the sin that we do is according to God's own sovereign direction. And in pardoning only some, that is unjust.

 

[atpollard]

According to determinists, God is the cause of everything, thus even the sin that we do is according to God's own sovereign direction. And in pardoning only some, that is unjust.

Romans 9:19-21 [ESV]

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?​

- Paul (the determinist?) ​

 

[TibiasDad]

Acts 4 does not say God foreknew what Judas would do and simply adopted it as His plan. It says specifically that He planned, DETERMINED and brought about by His hand. So Judas was determined and yet held responsible.

God uses our choices as he sees fit. He uses what he foresees for his purposes.
A man can shoot a gun, but God can then control the flight of the bullet as he sees fit.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Umm...that does not say those things could not be part of the plan. Communion is eating and drinking. Part of the plan.

The function of the act of communion and its elements are specific to the plan, not the choice to partake of it.

Doug

 

[Jim]

Romans 9:19-21 [ESV]

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?​

- Paul (the determinist?) ​

So what exactly do you think is the message and meaning of those verses?

 

[atpollard]

So what exactly do you think is the message and meaning of those verses?

I think that Paul anticipated the EXACT argument you make ... "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" ... and offered a response to THAT accusation.

I.O.W.: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well." - Corrie Ten Boom

 

[Jim]

I think that Paul anticipated the EXACT argument you make ... "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" ... and offered a response to THAT accusation.

I.O.W.: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well." - Corrie Ten Boom

Are you really suggesting that everyone being saved is not a God pleases?

 

[Jim]

Thank you for the explanation.

Personally, I see Total Depravity more like:
"Romans 1:18-32 describes what happens if God sits back and does nothing ... People are able to damn themselves just fine. So God must roll up His sleeves and do John 6:44-45 and Ephesians 2:1-10 if God wants ANYONE to be saved."
... but that is just me.

What more than giving us the bible, God's word of the truth, do you think He must do?