Are we Predestined?
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
What if what meal you choose is part of Gods plan?
So Judas had no choice. His hands were tied right? After all his vhoice was planned and determined. Brought about by the hand of God. Was Judas responsible for His choice?
He did know your choices. How you ask? Because He determined them.for me God "foreknew" my choices, not determined them.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I firmly believe there have been through history starting with Adam, and Noah, and Abraham, and Daniel, and Job, and Isaiah, and Nicodemus, and the 12 disciples, and not least Mary, and Joseph, and Paul, and the Jailor, and Cornelius, and Crispus, and Stephanus, and also Lydia, and the woman who touched Jesus hem for healing, and Jude of the 12, and most importantly Jesus
and many others that have not sprung to mind at the moment....... that these people were without question , absolutely predestined for the very reason that they were needed for God's over all plan that he designed and He dare not leave it to chance for he needed things done as he planned them..... OH... Jeremiah too... and Enoch, and on and on..... David....the thief...
possibly the second most important after Jesus was Joseph of Arimathea
These all had a specific purpose or job.
Now Presby02, tell me. Do you believe you have been given a specific job to do for God? If so, my hat is off to you. If not, then I do not believe common man is predestined the way that you do.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Then there should be nothing else to say…
This is a logical precept, not a scriptural one. You are assuming ‘truths’ not in evidence.
Doug
So then my uncle who chose not to believe in God was determined by God's plan? Shame on God.
Clearly you do not understand God's omniscience.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Not if God preordained it. But if God simply foresees it, the choice is made freely. Judas is responsible for, because he didn’t have to do it, but chose to. God simply knew what he would choose.
Doug
atpollard
Active Member
That is true, I am only assuming that Jesus died for your sins, too.
(But hope springs eternal).
TibiasDad
Active Member
But not everyone’s sins, and therein lies your error.That is true, I am only assuming that Jesus died for your sins, too.
(But hope springs eternal).
Doug
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TibiasDad
Active Member
Because…”…the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit…” (Rom 14:17)
Doug
atpollard
Active Member
Definitely not “all without exception”, just all of the “these whom he called, he also justified” (Romans 8:30).
If that is true, then how can God condemn anyone who has chosen not to believe in Him if that is what God determined that he choose?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Nor His foreknowledge.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
And another thing....
You are a very predetermined believing individual.
You certainly must believe that Judas was predetermined to be one of Calvins reprobates.
I aqm assuming because of your user name that you are Presbyterian, and as such follow the West Minster Confession of Faith that follows Calvin? Or you are a Presbyter = Christian Clergy
For those who do not know ... Presbyter is a term derived from the Greek word presbyteros, meaning "elder." It has become the basis both for the Catholic "priest," to which it is etymologically related, and the idea of a governing board of elders in other churches, especially the Presbyterian Church
And Presby02 somehow has not hit me as being a Catholic Priest.
So... WCF on Predetermination...
Westminster Confession of 1646: Of God's Eternal Decree
Chaopter 3, point 3
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).
As you have said.... " So Judas had no choice. His hands were tied right?"
Calvin and the WCF say you are right.
The Calvinist doctrine of the reprobate is one of the biggest slaps in the face of God that one could ever come up with. It is only a little behind the doctrine of Total Depravity which of course is the basis for the horrific doctrine of the reprobate.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Jim will be along to answer your question but I just happen to have something my frien said and thought I would share while you wait for him....
THIS IN NO WAY UNDERCUTS ANYTHING HE SAYS FOR I TRUST @Jim A wee bit more then my friend.
Core Meaning of Total Depravity.
Total depravity teaches that because of the Fall (Adam’s sin in Genesis 3), every part of human nature; mind, will, emotions, and body has been corrupted by sin. No aspect of a person remains untouched or neutral toward God. Humans are not as bad as they could possibly be (people can still do outwardly “good” things), but they are completely unable to do anything that merits salvation or even to turn to God on their own.
How this affects us.
Dead in sin ! The Bible describes unbelievers as spiritually “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1, Colossians 2:13). A spiritually dead person cannot choose or seek God any more than a corpse can choose to get up and walk.
Inability to come to God without grace , Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44). The natural human will is enslaved to sin (Romans 6:16–20) and hostile to God (Romans 8:7).
Every faculty corrupted, Intellect (darkened, Romans 1:21), affections (love the wrong things, John 3:19), conscience (defiled, Titus 1:15), and will (in bondage, Romans 6:20) are all affected.
Many people do not understand and common misunderstandings are,
It does not mean people are as evil as they could possibly be (e.g., everyone is a serial killer).
It does not mean unbelievers can do nothing good in a civil or outward sense (they can be kind parents, honest citizens, etc.), but these acts lack the right motive (love for God) and therefore do not please God in a saving way (Romans 8:8; Hebrews 11:6).
The quotes most known are,
John Calvin (Institutes 2.1.8): “The mind of man has been so completely estranged from God’s righteousness that it conceives, desires, and undertakes, only that which is impious, perverted, foul, impure, and infamous.”
Westminster Confession of Faith (1646): “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation… is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”
So to summarize these things.
Total depravity says that, apart from God’s sovereign, regenerating grace, every human being is spiritually dead, morally unable, and actively hostile toward God. This is why Calvinists insist that salvation must be entirely of grace (monergistic regeneration), because sinners will never choose God unless God first chooses and enables them.
The doctrine stands in contrast to views (e.g., semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism) that teach humans retain some natural ability to choose or cooperate with God for salvation.
civic
Active Member
I don't see any so-called reformed person taking issue with the above- its a good summary.
but you left out the teaching of men as a dead corpse in their natural state . wink wink
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