Are we Predestined?

[FreeInChrist]

for me God "foreknew" my choices, not determined them.

“Amen! Psalm 139:16 ..... He saw all my days before one came to be. Deuteronomy 30:19.....‘Choose life!’ Foreknowledge and real choice stand together perfectly.”

 

[atpollard]

for me God "foreknew" my choices, not determined them.

Omniscience means that God always knew everything (facts).
"Those whom He foreknew" means that God knew YOU before he predestined, before he called, before he justified ... YOU.
God LOVES you, not just your obedient choice ... YOU.

1 John 4:19 [ESV] We love because he first loved us.

 

[atpollard]

But not because God foreknows it. Again, God foreknowing is not causative. What you end up doing is certain, not because God foreknows it, but rather because that is what you finally choose to end up doing.

Then in what sense is this "God's plan"?
You appear to be claiming that God exerts no control over creation (which is Deism).

 

[atpollard]

but the glorified now is only positional- our glorified bodies are future.

John 3:18-21 [ESV]

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."​

• "positional" comes with "not condemned" (no judgement in some translations)
• God is taking care of the rest (works) ... as in:
  • Ephesians 2:10 [ESV] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[atpollard]

So what does God mean when He says: without holiness no one will see the Lord ? or be Holy as I am Holy says the Lord.

What does Jesus mean when He says: "No one is good except God alone."?

 

[civic]

What does Jesus mean when He says: "No one is good except God alone."?

conflating them since the 2 verses I quoted are commands to obey. Plus you are diverting the subject/topic.

what you quoted has to to with Jesus and God.

if you take your quote literally then Jesus is saying He is not good.

are you a unitarian now

 

[FreeInChrist]

Omniscience means that God always knew everything (facts).
"Those whom He foreknew" means that God knew YOU before he predestined, before he called, before he justified ... YOU.
God LOVES you, not just your obedient choice ... YOU.

1 John 4:19 [ESV] We love because he first loved us.

How to say this so you will understand.....

I am going to repeat myself , and if my signature was not getting so long I would put it there

I am, for longer then I care to remember, a card carrying Free Will believer..... who came from a predestined Calvin style church.

NOW.... as to what you have said I say.......

“Exactly! ‘Those whom He foreknew He also predestined’ (Romans 8:29) does not mean God arbitrarily picked some and rejected others with no regard to anything about us.

It means~ In eternity past, God looked down the corridor of time with perfect foreknowledge and saw who would freely say ‘Yes’ to Jesus when the gospel was offered — and every single one of those people He joyfully marked out in advance (‘predestined’) to be adopted, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

So predestination is God’s loving response to the free ‘Yes’ He already knew you would give — not a divine decree that forces or overrides your choice.

He foreknew your willing faith, and because He saw it, He predestined you to become exactly like His Son.

Free will and predestination are friends, not enemies — God simply ratifies and guarantees the free choice He always knew we would make.” The choices we would make, NOT

Predestination without free will that means that all events, including an individual's fate, are determined by God, leaving no room for personal choice or autonomy. This view suggests that people are chosen for salvation or condemnation based solely on God's will, rather than their own decisions or actions. THIS IS NOT ME.

 

[Jim]

Why do you always ignore the OTHER PART of what Romans 8:28 says about those people?

• They "love God"
• What else does it say about them? [hint: "called"]

I don't but if you read correctly at all, verses 29 and 30 describe the manner in which those who love God are called. It is not those that are called that love God, but rather those who love God that are called in the manner described in the following two verses. Observe that verse 29 says that God foreknew something. And those that God foreknew were predestined. Those who were predestined were called. Thus the something that is said to be foreknown is not being called but are those who love God.

You must understand that faith is the key, It has been the key from the very beginning to now and beyond. Those who love God are those, and only those, who have faith in God. Salvation was, is and always shall be by grace through faith.

 

[atpollard]

It means~ In eternity past, God looked down the corridor of time with perfect foreknowledge and saw who would freely say ‘Yes’ to Jesus when the gospel was offered — and every single one of those people He joyfully marked out in advance (‘predestined’) to be adopted, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

Respectfully, I was a nihilist actively preparing a mass-murder when God appeared "Road to Damascus style" and informed me that, effective immediately, I belong to Him. I had a REAL hard time trying to reconcile that reality to the Wesleyan Holiness teaching at the first church I located after the event (and attended for a decade).

I literally have no choice but to believe in monergistic Unconditional Election of the Totally Depraved via Irresistible Grace without denying the reality of my salvation. I would never claim "God cannot call, and you cannot choose", but I must confess that "God did not ask and I did not choose, God chose me and I came".

John 15:16[ ESV] "You did not choose me, but I chose you ..."
John 15:19 [ESV] "I chose you out of the world ..."

"God looked down the corridor of time with perfect foreknowledge ... " I cannot locate any verses that indicate God "looking forward" to make any decision. I do not object to the IDEA, but am uncomfortable with its lack of scriptural examples or support. [I have the same issue with "Limited Atonement" ... it makes sense, but I would prefer scripture over logic.]

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't but if you read correctly at all, verses 29 and 30 describe the manner in which those who love God are called. It is not those that are called that love God, but rather those who love God that are called in the manner described in the following two verses. Observe that verse 29 says that God foreknew something. And those that God foreknew were predestined. Those who were predestined were called. Thus the something that is said to be foreknown is not being called but are those who love God.

You must understand that faith is the key, It has been the key from the very beginning to now and beyond. Those who love God are those, and only those, who have faith in God. Salvation was, is and always shall be by grace through faith.

Ditto.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation was, is and always shall be by grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, - Ephesians 2:8 [ESV]

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

So where does that FAITH come from?

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

How about GRACE?

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

Does that mean that every aspect of SALVATION is ...

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

That's MONERGISM, Patrick!

 

[civic]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, - Ephesians 2:8 [ESV]

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

So where does that FAITH come from?

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

How about GRACE?

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

Does that mean that every aspect of SALVATION is ...

• NOT of YOUR doing
• it is a GIFT OF GOD

That's MONERGISM, Patrick!

Not so fast patrick

Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below :

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

 

[Jim]

Not so fast patrick

Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below :

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

HEAR! HEAR!

 

[atpollard]

Not so fast patrick

Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

"Patrick" is getting beyond his skill in Greek, however Patrick is well read in English on others who do know Koine Greek.
I can offer no comment on your "nominative case" and its significance, but if you are going to claim proficiency in Koine Greek to settle this, then please address the "masculine", "feminine" & "neuter" issue in the sentence and "that" [G3778: neuter] agreeing with either "saved" [G4982: masculine] or "faith" [G4102: feminine] or "grace" [G5485: feminine].

"salvation" (the word) does not appear anywhere in Ephesians 2:1-10

[ESV] 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

I have read that the gender means that the "gift" [G1435: neuter] is "that [G3778: neuter] not of your own doing" and must include both the masculine and feminine to warrant a neuter gender, thus including "saved" [G4982: masculine] and "faith" [G4102: feminine] and "grace" [G5485: feminine].

In what way have I been misinformed by the experts?

 

[TibiasDad]

That is simply not true. You could have done otherwise, you simply won't. Natural vs. Moral ability.

1) My choice between a ham sandwich or macaroni and cheese for lunch is not a moral choice, but you have God predetermining that decision and every other choice. Morality is not what’s on my lunch menu.

2) I cannot have done otherwise; If God ties my arm behind my back, I can’t clap my hands! God’s determination ties an otherwise choice behind our back making it impossible and unavailable to do.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

100% agree.


For "glorified", I can agree that it is temporally and "ordo salutis" after "we believe".
For "justified", well, the waters are a little muddier ...

• Setting aside "Limited vs Universal", did the ATONEMENT happen before or after "we" (you and I) "believed"?
• When did Jesus do what Jesus did?
• When does God apply it to us?
• Is the TEMPORAL order different from the "Ordo Salutis" (LOGICAL order)?

"justified" gets a little trickier ... maybe above my pay grade.

God does not apply it to us personally until we believe. Belief is the key that opens the floodgate of grace upon us. No one is saved until they believe: all who are lost have not believed; all who are saved have believed.

Doug

 

[atpollard]

God does not apply it to us personally until we believe. Belief is the key that opens the floodgate of grace upon us. No one is saved until they believe: all who are lost have not believed; all who are saved have believed.

Doug

True, but I am a Baptist so I cannot escape that "already and not yet" aspect of things related to God.

I mean, when "He who knew no sin, became sin", do you think Jesus was ignorant of YOU and ME [specific individuals] and went through all that for an "abstract principal" ... or do you think Christ had US (specific individuals) on his mind and the goal was worth the cost to HIM?

So, there was a moment in 1979 when it was "applied" to me, but there was a moment in AD 30-ish when it was set aside and reserved for me ... 'cause He knew 1979 was coming. Like the song talks about, the veil in the 'Holy of Holies' was torn in half because God didn't have to wait any longer. It was finished and "mercy" was free to "come a running".

The Father chose WHEN.
The Spirit worked generationally towards that moment.
The Son stood waiting with open arms to lavish MERCY and GRACE on one who didn't deserve it.
I fell on my face in tear-stained awe ... and humbly received.

 

[Jim]

"Patrick" is getting beyond his skill in Greek, however Patrick is well read in English on others who do know Koine Greek.
I can offer no comment on your "nominative case" and its significance, but if you are going to claim proficiency in Koine Greek to settle this, then please address the "masculine", "feminine" & "neuter" issue in the sentence and "that" [G3778: neuter] agreeing with either "saved" [G4982: masculine] or "faith" [G4102: feminine] or "grace" [G5485: feminine].

"salvation" (the word) does not appear anywhere in Ephesians 2:1-10

[ESV] 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

I have read that the gender means that the "gift" [G1435: neuter] is "that [G3778: neuter] not of your own doing" and must include both the masculine and feminine to warrant a neuter gender, thus including "saved" [G4982: masculine] and "faith" [G4102: feminine] and "grace" [G5485: feminine].

In what way have I been misinformed by the experts?

You haven't been misinformed by the experts. You were simply not given the whole story. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is expressed in the entire phrase of "you have been saved by grace through faith". In such a case the antecedent is not grace nor faith, both of which are feminine nouns, but instead is the entire phrase. In such a case, the Greek calls for the neuter gender for the word "that", hence the Greek word τοῦτο [touto].

 

[atpollard]

You haven't been misinformed by the experts. You were simply not given the whole story. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is expressed in the entire phrase of "you have been saved by grace through faith". In such a case the antecedent is not grace nor faith, both of which are feminine nouns, but instead is the entire phrase. In such a case, the Greek calls for the neuter gender for the word "that", hence the Greek word τοῦτο [touto].

Thank you.

Let me start with an "olive branch" ... Clearly matching "this/gift" (neuter) requires at a minimum 1 masculine (must be "saved") and at least 1 feminine ("grace" for the sake of argument). Thus the "this" (not of your own doing) cannot be less than "by grace you have been saved".

How can we be certain about "faith" ... Now comes the hard part (for me). If "this" is "by grace you have been saved", then mankind may indeed supply the faith for salvation. If "this" is "by grace you have been saved through faith", then "this" is also explicitly "not of your doing" (which suggests that "faith" is part of the "gift").

Since far greater minds than mine have debated this for half a millennium (at least), I suspect no sudden revelation that will resolve the question for all time will spring from my mind or this conversation. I can, personally, picture the Holy Spirit "facepalm" every time this discussion comes up ... like when Rabbis debated whether the failure to keep the law perfectly was what was preventing the Messiah coming, or was God waiting for the Zealots to drive the pagans out and then He would come. They had no clue ... sometimes I feel like one of them (clueless).

 

[brightfame52]

You haven't been misinformed by the experts. You were simply not given the whole story. The gift in Ephesians 2:8 is expressed in the entire phrase of "you have been saved by grace through faith". In such a case the antecedent is not grace nor faith, both of which are feminine nouns, but instead is the entire phrase. In such a case, the Greek calls for the neuter gender for the word "that", hence the Greek word τοῦτο [touto].

So then Faith is a gift and not of ourselves, since it belongs to the entire phrase. Most in religion these days believe faith is of themselves in salvation