Are we Predestined?

[Angelo]

So you can't? I didn't think you could.

Here is more than a clam:

‘Everything,’ says John Calvin, ‘depends upon the mere will of God; if some are damned and others saved it is because God has created some for death and others for life.’”

“The doctrine of predestination as taught by Calvinists is very shocking, and ought utterly to be abhorred, because it charges the most holy God with being the author of sin.”

This abhorrent doctrine is not biblical but is a human invention.

 

[TibiasDad]

That's your opinion

It is demonstrable fact! You cannot prove your opinion by exegetical evidence.


Doug

 

[TedT]

In Scripture, the basic meaning of the terms predestination and election is the same: to mark out beforehand for a special purpose and blessing. On what basis? The sole reason that is always given is foreknowledge.

Agreed...

but: if HIS foreknowledge was based upon omniscience before the creation of HIS children, then there can be no loving reason HE created those HE also foreknew would end in hell given the various verses about HIS desire to not condemn anyone...

I consider it much more likely that HE created everyone in HIS image innocent with a free will with the ability and opportunity to respond to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel of salvation from sin with faith, an unproven hope, or with rebuke, rejecting HIS proclamation as the lies of a false god...

Our response to HIS self revelation separated us all by our free will into three groups: the reprobate who never put their faith in HIM as telling us the truth, and the elect who did put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin who were further separated into those who stayed faithful to HIS call to be holy, ie, the elect angels, and those who rebelled against HIS call for the judgement of the reprobate, who became the sinful elect, the sinful believers who are never condemned but are predestined to be returned to their Savior as promised by their election: 1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. If this is about our conversion to faith in Christ, when were we in Christ to go astray from Him to later return?

Thus, we chose our FATES by our free will but HE chose us predetermined LIVES to fulfill HIS promise of election to salvation for any believer who sinned.

 

[TedT]

That’s made up there is nothing in the Bible saying any such thing

I can accept that Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not (has never) believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. in which the word already alludes to their pre-earth fall and eternal condemnation...

 

[brightfame52]

Everything,’ says John Calvin, ‘depends upon the mere will of God; if some are damned and others saved it is because God has created some for death and others for life.’”

That's true, everything does depend solely on the Sovereign will of God, to include our eternal destiny. The wicked non elect were made for the day of evil which is the day of His wrath Prov 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Angelo]

So if you think it true, then man is a puppet with God pulling the strings, making foreknowledge meaningless. Without free choice man would not be morally responsible, could not love God, know God’s love, receive the gift of salvation, have meaningful communion with God, or worship Him.

That not Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

It is demonstrable fact! You cannot prove your opinion by exegetical evidence.


Doug

Not to you, and there's no obligation to prove anything to you.

 

[brightfame52]

So if you think it true, then man is a puppet with God pulling the strings, making foreknowledge meaningless. Without free choice man would not be morally responsible, could not love God, know God’s love, receive the gift of salvation, have meaningful communion with God, or worship Him.

That not Christianity.

I don't know what you talking about. Sounds like something that comes from your understanding

 

[Angelo]

I don't know what you talking about. Sounds like something that comes from your understanding

It's called Calvinism.

 

[TedT]

At the council of apostles and elders in Jerusalem, James stated clearly, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” Acts 15: 18

To know everything He would do, God must have known every thought, word, and event that would ever occur. This biblical truth is clearly necessary if God is to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, the Creator and Sustainer of all. Unquestionably, from eternity past, God must have known everything.

FORE means before but does it mean before creation or just before life?

All HIS works is usually taken to refer to all HIS acts of creation which implies that if HE did not create something then HE did not know it.

IF then, HE did not create the results of the free will decisions of HIS creation but learned them as we chose them, then HE would not know them until we created them for ourselves...

This would mean that HIS predestination of our lives based upon HIS foreknowledge would be based upon HIS knowledge of our true free will decisions, (ie, not the fake free will of those enslaved to sin).

The failure of the Church definition of foreknowledge and omniscience was to define GOD's omniscience by accepting the pagan Greek wisdom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all eh? To bad it is a blasphemy...

GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.

This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is blasphemy.

 

[Gaius]

Agreed...

but: if HIS foreknowledge was based upon omniscience before the creation of HIS children, then there can be no loving reason HE created those HE also foreknew would end in hell given the various verses about HIS desire to not condemn anyone...

I consider it much more likely that HE created everyone in HIS image innocent with a free will with the ability and opportunity to respond to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel of salvation from sin with faith, an unproven hope, or with rebuke, rejecting HIS proclamation as the lies of a false god...

Our response to HIS self revelation separated us all by our free will into three groups: the reprobate who never put their faith in HIM as telling us the truth, and the elect who did put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin who were further separated into those who stayed faithful to HIS call to be holy, ie, the elect angels, and those who rebelled against HIS call for the judgement of the reprobate, who became the sinful elect, the sinful believers who are never condemned but are predestined to be returned to their Savior as promised by their election: 1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. If this is about our conversion to faith in Christ, when were we in Christ to go astray from Him to later return?

Thus, we chose our FATES by our free will but HE chose us predetermined LIVES to fulfill HIS promise of election to salvation for any believer who sinned.

Good thinking!

 

[brightfame52]

It's called Calvinism.

That's what you call it but to God it's true

 

[TibiasDad]

Not to you, and there's no obligation to prove anything to you.

You have not proved it to anyone but yourself.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You have not proved it to anyone but yourself.


Doug

I have proved it to whomever God wants me to prove it to, because He is the one who actually proves truth in the minds and hearts of people, I'm just a witness of the truth. Now God sees my testimony of the truth, but only He can cause it to be understood and believed, He gives the increase.

 

[Gaius]

I have proved it to whomever God wants me to prove it to, because He is the one who actually proves truth in the minds and hearts of people, I'm just a witness of the truth. Now God sees my testimony of the truth, but only He can cause it to be understood and believed, He gives the increase.

You really can't prove anything with the twisted scripture use by Calvinists.

 

[Angelo]

That's what you call it but to God it's true

Wrong, Calvinism is viewed as a "lie" or false doctrine because its central tenets, particularly predestination and limited atonement, contradict the biblical message that God desires all people to be saved and that humans have free will to choose or reject Him.
Calvinists speak out of both sides of their mouths in order to avoid the valid charge that Calvinism denies God’s love for all mankind. Those who try to separate themselves from what they call “extreme Calvinism,” or “hyper-Calvinism,” go to great lengths to make it appear that Calvinism’s God truly loves all.

But just a little digging into Calvinism shows their god to be unloving.

 

[brightfame52]

You really can't prove anything with the twisted scripture use by Calvinists.

That's your opinion

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong, Calvinism is viewed as a "lie" or false doctrine because its central tenets, particularly predestination and limited atonement, contradict the biblical message that God desires all people to be saved and that humans have free will to choose or reject Him.

That's your opinion and not scriptural.

 

[TibiasDad]

He can cause it to be understood and believed, He gives the increase.

So God doesn’t want me to understand? So am I not a believer in Christ because I don’t understand things as you do?

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

So God doesn’t want me to understand? So am I not a believer in Christ because I don’t understand things as you do?

Doug

That's God's business not mine.