Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?

[Swordman]

The monumental failure of the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 is that the potter/clay analogy has anything at all to do with salvation or condemnation. Vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy does not relate to either being condemned or being saved. The point of the reference to Pharaoh in verse 17 is not about whether or not God saved Pharaoh; rather it is about how God used Pharaoh in this life to accomplishes God's own purpose. The mercy and hardening spoken of there in chapter 9 is events in this life, not the next.

I agree (as does Dixon).

The showing of His wrath to make known His power (vs. 22) is not about condemnation. It is about events in this earthly existence. We are not privy to whether anyone is eventually saved or condemned. We are made known of God's power by events that occur in this physical existence. God's entire written word, the Bible, is the record of God's providential acts in this creation and the promise of His reaction to how each of us individually responds to that record. It is not a record of individual salvation or condemnation.

Actually, if you read carefully, the text speaks of God desiring to show his wrath, but being patient instead. In Rom 2, he does so (same word for showing patience) to allow for repentance. One of the key debates concerning the "vessels" is whether they are instrumental (as in 2 Tim 2:20-21) or whether the vessels are recipients of God's wrath or mercy.

While Dixon argues that they are recipients of God's wrath (leading to mercy), I tend to take a more instrumental approach to the vessels. Elsewhere in Paul the verse seems to take on an instrumental approach. Besides the verses above, 2 Cor. 4:7 speaks of us as "Jars of Clay" (a callout to a musical group I enjoyed years ago), which technically is "vessels" in the Greek. In that text, Paul speak of us as containing "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (4:6). Paul is highlighting our weakness through which God works in the ministry of the gospel.

Dixon hints at an instrumental quality to the vessels as well, but seems to focus more on the vessels being under God's wrath. I found that portion of the study a bit too ambiguous, but I understood the direction he was taking. I believe the language points more towards instrumentality, although they could be under God's wrath as well. I suppose it is a question of which aspect is primary in the use of the term.

The election described and displayed in Romans 9 is not about being chosen for salvation but rather about being chosen for service. Isreal (Jacob) was not chosen for salvation. God's chosen people, Isreal, were chosen (elect) to bring salvation through Jesus Christ to the world. God's sovereignty demonstrated in Romans 9 is not about who is saved or lost but about who God uses to bring salvation to mankind.

I think the election in view is the covenantal election of Israel through the patriarchs (Rom 11:28).

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored Greek scholarship by leaving some meaning off

I.E. that of men who father children has them making children, i.e., begetting others

2 Pet 2:12 they were born to be taken and destroyed

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Red Baker]

@Swordman

"Children of the devil" (John 8:44) is figurative for a person's behavior. The devil does not give birth to anyone. In fact, Paul states that we are all children of God, even pagans (Acts 17:28-29).

I'm marking this to come back later (maybe tomorrow) to discuss this with you.

 

[TomL]

2 Pet 2:12 they were born to be taken and destroyed

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

You are not going to deal with the Greek, are you?

You ignored Greek scholarship by leaving some meaning off

I.E. that of men who father children has them making children, i.e., begetting others

γεννάω (gennaō), VB. become the parent of. fut.act. γεννήσω; aor.act. ἐγέννησα; perf.act. γεγέννηκά; aor.pass. ἐγεννήθην; perf.mid. γεγέννημαι. Hebrew equivalent: ילד (66). LTW γεννάω (Children), γεννάω (Regeneration). Verb Usage 1. to bear (give birth)† — to give birth to. See also τίκτω. Related Topics: Birth; Bear Children. Jn 16:21 ὅταν δὲ γεννήσῃ τὸ παιδίον, 2. to father — to become the male agent responsible for the conception of a child (and its eventual entry into the world). Related Topics: Mother; Abba; Father. Mt 1:2 Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ac 7:8 καὶ οὕτως ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαὰκ Heb 1:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε, Heb 5:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε· 1 Jn 5:1 πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα 3. to be fathered — to be or become conceived due to male agency. Jn 3:4 Πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι γέρων ὤν; Ga 4:23 ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, 1 Jn 3:9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ 1 Jn 5:1 τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, …
LXGNTLEX

 

[brightfame52]

You are not going to deal with the Greek, are you?

You ignored Greek scholarship by leaving some meaning off

I.E. that of men who father children has them making children, i.e., begetting others

γεννάω (gennaō), VB. become the parent of. fut.act. γεννήσω; aor.act. ἐγέννησα; perf.act. γεγέννηκά; aor.pass. ἐγεννήθην; perf.mid. γεγέννημαι. Hebrew equivalent: ילד (66). LTW γεννάω (Children), γεννάω (Regeneration). Verb Usage 1. to bear (give birth)† — to give birth to. See also τίκτω. Related Topics: Birth; Bear Children. Jn 16:21 ὅταν δὲ γεννήσῃ τὸ παιδίον, 2. to father — to become the male agent responsible for the conception of a child (and its eventual entry into the world). Related Topics: Mother; Abba; Father. Mt 1:2 Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ac 7:8 καὶ οὕτως ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαὰκ Heb 1:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε, Heb 5:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε· 1 Jn 5:1 πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα 3. to be fathered — to be or become conceived due to male agency. Jn 3:4 Πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι γέρων ὤν; Ga 4:23 ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, 1 Jn 3:9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ 1 Jn 5:1 τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, …
LXGNTLEX

Its crystal clear

2 Pet 2:12 they were born to be taken and destroyed

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Jim]

Its crystal clear

2 Pet 2:12 they were born to be taken and destroyed

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

They shall perish in their own corruption; not in God's "reprobation".

 

[brightfame52]

They shall perish in their own corruption; not in God's "reprobation".

Both, God made them to be born and perish in their sins, thats their corruption, their sins

 

[Jim]

Both, God made them to be born and perish in their sins, thats their corruption, their sins

They are the cause of their perishing, not God. If you think God is the cause, then you have a really terrible view of God. But that of course is the Calvinist view of God and it is a terrible view of God. It makes God the ogre of His own creation.

 

[civic]

They are the cause of their perishing, not God. If you think God is the cause, then you have a really terrible view of God. But that of course is the Calvinist view of God and it is a terrible view of God. It makes God the ogre of His own creation.

Amen- God would be a monster if that were true.

 

[brightfame52]

They are the cause of their perishing, not God

Gods decree made them to be guilty for their sins so He would destroy them

 

[TomL]

Its crystal clear

2 Pet 2:12 they were born to be taken and destroyed

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

You are not going to deal with the Greek, are you?

You ignored Greek scholarship by leaving some meaning off

I.E. that of men who father children has them making children, i.e., begetting others

γεννάω (gennaō), VB. become the parent of. fut.act. γεννήσω; aor.act. ἐγέννησα; perf.act. γεγέννηκά; aor.pass. ἐγεννήθην; perf.mid. γεγέννημαι. Hebrew equivalent: ילד (66). LTW γεννάω (Children), γεννάω (Regeneration). Verb Usage 1. to bear (give birth)† — to give birth to. See also τίκτω. Related Topics: Birth; Bear Children. Jn 16:21 ὅταν δὲ γεννήσῃ τὸ παιδίον, 2. to father — to become the male agent responsible for the conception of a child (and its eventual entry into the world). Related Topics: Mother; Abba; Father. Mt 1:2 Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ac 7:8 καὶ οὕτως ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαὰκ Heb 1:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε, Heb 5:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε· 1 Jn 5:1 πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα 3. to be fathered — to be or become conceived due to male agency. Jn 3:4 Πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι γέρων ὤν; Ga 4:23 ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, 1 Jn 3:9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ 1 Jn 5:1 τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, …
LXGNTLEX

 

[FreeInChrist]

Im sure of this Rom 8:8

And I am sure of Romans 8:1 to 8:7 and Romans 8:9 to 8:39

 

[brightfame52]

You are not going to deal with the Greek, are you?

I actually used a greek word, the word for made in the greek is born, they were made/born to be taken and destroyed.

 

[TomL]

I actually used a greek word, the word for made in the greek is born, they were made/born to be taken and destroyed.

And you ignore this aspect of its meaning


I.E. that of men who father children has them making children, i.e., begetting others

γεννάω (gennaō), VB. become the parent of. fut.act. γεννήσω; aor.act. ἐγέννησα; perf.act. γεγέννηκά; aor.pass. ἐγεννήθην; perf.mid. γεγέννημαι. Hebrew equivalent: ילד (66). LTW γεννάω (Children), γεννάω (Regeneration). Verb Usage 1. to bear (give birth)† — to give birth to. See also τίκτω. Related Topics: Birth; Bear Children. Jn 16:21 ὅταν δὲ γεννήσῃ τὸ παιδίον, 2. to father — to become the male agent responsible for the conception of a child (and its eventual entry into the world). Related Topics: Mother; Abba; Father. Mt 1:2 Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ac 7:8 καὶ οὕτως ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαὰκ Heb 1:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε, Heb 5:5 ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε· 1 Jn 5:1 πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα 3. to be fathered — to be or become conceived due to male agency. Jn 3:4 Πῶς δύναται ἄνθρωπος γεννηθῆναι γέρων ὤν; Ga 4:23 ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, 1 Jn 3:9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ 1 Jn 5:1 τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται, …
LXGNTLEX

 

[brightfame52]

And you ignore this aspect of its meaning

It really nothing else to do, the truth is established, some are born to be destroyed, to perish in their sins, They are vessels of wrath made by God and fitted for destruction. See how Apostle Paul and Peter have the same doctrine.

 

[TomL]

It really nothing else to do, the truth is established, some are born to be destroyed, to perish in their sins, They are vessels of wrath made by God and fitted for destruction. See how Apostle Paul and Peter have the same doctrine.

Sorry, that makes no sense, as God desires that all do not perish, that all should repent, all become saved to determine men from birth are condemned to punishment.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:3–4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Ezek 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezek 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezek 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

John 3:16–17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Matt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, that makes no sense, as God desires that all do not perish, that all should repent, all become saved to determine men from birth are condemned to punishment.

It makes all kind of sense, He is the Potter and we the Clay

 

[Jim]

Gods decree made them to be guilty for their sins so He would destroy them

That of course includes you my friend. The whole world is guilty of their sins. All who do not believe will suffer eternal condemnation.

".....whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16)

 

[TomL]

It makes all kind of sense, He is the Potter and we the Clay

Again

Sorry, that makes no sense, as God desires that all do not perish, that all should repent, all become saved to determine men from birth are condemned to punishment.

That would be opposite his desire.

 

[brightfame52]

That of course includes you my friend.

It would if Im not included in the election of grace wherein my guilt was transferred to Christs account. Same with you, if you are not included in the election of grace made b4 the foundation, you are doomed as well. If Im not included, Im doomed, if you not included you doomed, and aint nothing we can do about it.