jeremiah1five
Active Member
The word "Greek" does not mean Gentile. It refers to Hellenized Jews who grew up Gentile in every way. It refers to mixed-race Jews who grew up as Gentile in Greek culture - thanks to Alexander the Great.
And All Israel Shall Be Saved!
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
More ethnic worship
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes the Moral law Rom 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
In vs 15 the law written in their hearts has the definite article, the Law of God written in their hearts. They had the same Moral law as in the Law of Moses, they didn't have the ceremonial and civil laws they had. Both non elect jews and gentiles will be judgged by the same moral law in judgment,
Rom 2 16,11-13
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 ;For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Sorry, nice try. Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I quote
I quote the bible, always referencing book, chapter and verse. I did not write those things. It is everyone from Mattew to John in Revelation who has added and the quasi so called men of the cloth who have taught we must believe the written word. I have heard that for over 78 years.
And not just the LJV... we have the Aramaic scriptures as well as the Ethiopian bible scriptures all saying abouyt the same thing except the Ethiopians have 78 books.
When I was in grade school... going to my confirmation classes my RCC schoolmates were told never to read the bible. The priest would interpret and explain to them. When my 96 year old RCC aunt died 3 years ago she never had had a bible... she went to mass to "learn".
So quit saying I add. Mathew added, Mark added, Luke added and John added..... and the worst offender has to have been Saul.....
I have quoted each extensively. I have much of John 1 - 3 committed to memory.
You talk ad nauseum about the Abram covenant with God and how our tracing back makes us included....
But you fail to mention the other half of that which is it impossible for one to really know if they trace back to him or not.... But what if they do, and it is to Ishmael who is not part of the covenant.
I could, for that matter so could you.
From https://biblehub.com/q/Ishmael_s_link_to_Abraham_s_covenant.htm
You should find this interesting from above.
Distinct yet Connected: Ishmael and Isaac
• Covenant Channel: Isaac alone carried the messianic promise (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7).
• Illustrative Contrast: Paul later uses the two sons to illustrate law versus promise (Galatians 4:22-23), yet both sons show God’s faithfulness in different spheres.
Foreshadowing Redemption History
• The prophet Isaiah refers to Kedar and Nebaioth (Isaiah 60:7)—names straight from Ishmael’s list—joining in worship, hinting at Gentile inclusion.
Key Takeaways
• God keeps every word—both primary covenant promises and accompanying assurances.
• Blessings to Ishmael highlight God’s generosity; His purposes are bigger than one family line yet perfectly ordered through it.
• The faithfulness shown in Genesis 25:12 encourages confidence that every other promise in Scripture will likewise stand firm.
But while God did as he promised and made Ismael into a great nation....
Ishmael was promised blessings and a great nation, but the specific promise of salvation is primarily associated with Isaac and his descendants through the covenant established by God. While Ishmael's lineage is acknowledged and blessed, the covenant of salvation is focused on Isaac and ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ
So just saying back to the Abrahamic covenant is not enough... you have to specify Isaac.
In conclusion, while Ishmael was promised blessings and a great nation, the covenant of salvation is specifically linked to Isaac and his lineage.
That is not adding to anything . It is fact.
I quote the bible, always referencing book, chapter and verse. I did not write those things. It is everyone from Mattew to John in Revelation who has added and the quasi so called men of the cloth who have taught we must believe the written word. I have heard that for over 78 years.
And not just the LJV... we have the Aramaic scriptures as well as the Ethiopian bible scriptures all saying abouyt the same thing except the Ethiopians have 78 books.
When I was in grade school... going to my confirmation classes my RCC schoolmates were told never to read the bible. The priest would interpret and explain to them. When my 96 year old RCC aunt died 3 years ago she never had had a bible... she went to mass to "learn".
So quit saying I add. Mathew added, Mark added, Luke added and John added..... and the worst offender has to have been Saul.....
I have quoted each extensively. I have much of John 1 - 3 committed to memory.
You talk ad nauseum about the Abram covenant with God and how our tracing back makes us included....
But you fail to mention the other half of that which is it impossible for one to really know if they trace back to him or not.... But what if they do, and it is to Ishmael who is not part of the covenant.
I could, for that matter so could you.
From https://biblehub.com/q/Ishmael_s_link_to_Abraham_s_covenant.htm
You should find this interesting from above.
Distinct yet Connected: Ishmael and Isaac
• Covenant Channel: Isaac alone carried the messianic promise (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7).
• Illustrative Contrast: Paul later uses the two sons to illustrate law versus promise (Galatians 4:22-23), yet both sons show God’s faithfulness in different spheres.
Foreshadowing Redemption History
• The prophet Isaiah refers to Kedar and Nebaioth (Isaiah 60:7)—names straight from Ishmael’s list—joining in worship, hinting at Gentile inclusion.
Key Takeaways
• God keeps every word—both primary covenant promises and accompanying assurances.
• Blessings to Ishmael highlight God’s generosity; His purposes are bigger than one family line yet perfectly ordered through it.
• The faithfulness shown in Genesis 25:12 encourages confidence that every other promise in Scripture will likewise stand firm.
But while God did as he promised and made Ismael into a great nation....
Ishmael was promised blessings and a great nation, but the specific promise of salvation is primarily associated with Isaac and his descendants through the covenant established by God. While Ishmael's lineage is acknowledged and blessed, the covenant of salvation is focused on Isaac and ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ
So just saying back to the Abrahamic covenant is not enough... you have to specify Isaac.
Covenant of Salvation
While Ishmael received blessings, the specific promise of salvation is primarily associated with his half-brother Isaac. The covenant established by God focuses on Isaac and his descendants. This covenant is ultimately fulfilled through Jesus Christ, who is seen as the Messiah in Christian belief.Summary of Key Points
| Blessings | Great nation, numerous descendants | Covenant of salvation |
| Covenant Focus | Not the primary line of covenant | Central to God's salvation plan |
| Fulfillment | Acknowledged but not salvific | Fulfilled in Jesus Christ |
[th]
Aspect
[/th][th]Ishmael
[/th][th]Isaac
[/th]That is not adding to anything . It is fact.
brightfame52
Active Member
They were and under Gods Law
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Thank you for that. I read it and I take issue with two interpretations. (Sorry to hear about your aunt.)
The first is "families of the earth." This does not refer to Gentiles.
The Abrahamic Covenant contains two promises outright: covenant with Abe and his descendants, and to whom the blessings are given merely by being Abe's descendants.
It is inconsistent that while God is promising covenant and blessings to take "families of the earth" as Gentile inclusion in the narrative. There are two promises and two people involved in this passage. To go outside of the focus God is detailing in the narrative to include Gentiles is inconsistent to the narrative. To take that to mean Gentiles is like going to war against an enemy but attacking someone else. Stay in context. "Families of the earth" refers to Abraham's seed through both Isaac and Ishmael. One has blessings by being Abraham's seed, the other is having covenant and blessings by being Abraham's seed. For it follows that seed connects "families" since Abraham's seed will be like the sand on the seashore, and stars in the heavens. Gentiles do not come out of Abraham's loins. They come from Ham and Japheth. And they were not called "Gentiles" until much later when Abe's seed populated the land and "Hebrews" became a plurality in contrast to non-Hebrews in and around the land. Ishmaelites are mixed-race - Hebrew and Egyptian. Abraham married his half-sister (also a descendant of Eber - Gen. 11:10-26.) Same for Isaac and Jacob. The Hebrew lineage was fully Eberite (Hebrew.)
The passage does not say, "families of the WORLD", but "families of the earth", or erets (ארץ). According to rabbinical teaching erets is always understood as the (holy) land.
The "families of the (holy land)/earth" that are blessed remains Abraham's seed. And Ishmael and Isaac are Abraham's seed. "Families of the earth" cannot refer to Europe, Africa, the United States, Canada, or South America for these places would not be explored for some nearly 3500 years. The context of "families of the earth" must mean Abraham's families through Ishmael and Isaac, and also Esau, who was Abraham's seed blessed because he, too, was Abraham's seed.
When God made covenant with Abraham those peoples alive at the time were not "Gentile" but were of the seed of Ham and Japheth. It was only much later as Hebrews were being born through Jacob's twelve sons and became a plurality that besides the distinction between the peoples due to Abe and his seed practicing circumcision which separated them from the Hamites and Japhethim that were in the land, Abraham was at the beginning of the "families of the earth" population explosion that was to occur through Jacob's twelve sons after Jacob's death. Seventy souls went to Egypt and four hundred years later millions would be delivered from Egyptian slavery and end up in the desert where God made new covenant with the children of Jacob/Israel through Moses' mediation later called the Mosaic Covenant. This covenant had three parts: Moral Law, Social Law, and Ceremonial Law. This covenant did not include non-Hebrew Gentiles. It was God's Law to and for the Hebrew children of Jacob/Israel.
If they are Ishmael's descendants, they are still Abraham's seed. The dilution of Abraham's DNA can never be "birthed" out. There is no "hinting at Gentile inclusion."
And Jacob. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
At this point are non-Hebrews included in Abraham's Covenant?
No, they are not.
Are non-Hebrews included in the Mosaic Covenant?
No, they are not.
Are non-Hebrews included in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah?
No, they are not. The text records the New Covenant between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.)
Besides individual promises God makes to Hebrew individuals, these three covenants above are Hebrew-specific. They do not include non-Hebrews (Gentiles.)
When the Promised Messiah arrived as prophesied by the Hebrew prophets, He makes claims about His Person, His Ministry, and His purpose in coming. He reads from Isaiah 61:1-2 and declares that passage is fulfilled in the presence of the Hebrew people. He also declares that He shall die specifically for the Hebrew people, His people.
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 20:28.
connects to:
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
For he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11.
Isaiah is prophet to the Hebrew people. His message from God is meant for both kingdoms. Thus, the "many" that shall be justified by His death will atone Hebrews of both kingdoms.
At Jesus' last Passover the twelve disciples are present with Him and participate in the Passover meal and observance to its meaning and says this "new" testament/covenant is founded upon His body and His blood. The Passover is Hebrew-specific. There were no non-Hebrew Gentiles participating in the first Passover nor in this Passover taking place in the upper room with His twelve disciples. The language recorded by the gospel writers is as follows:
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26:26–28.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mark 14:22–24.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luke 22:19–20.
Above are a Passover meal and observance which connects these men in the upper room with the first Passover God commanded the children of Israel to do on one particular night in which the Angel of Death, the Holy Spirit, enters the Egyptian domain and the firstborn of all Egypt - including animals - are slain. The children of Israel are protected by the blood of an animal sacrificed whose blood marks the door frames of every Hebrew home. While non-Hebrew Gentiles (Egyptians) fall and die before the awesome power and Presence of God's own Spirit, this event is solemnly remembered by Jesus and the twelve disciples.
There are many considerations in the four-gospel record, especially in John's gospel, where Jesus states that when He departs, He will send a "Comforter" to them that has one distinction. The Gentile world cannot receive Him whom He sends:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (Greek: "allos") Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15–17.
The "world" is identified as non-Hebrew Gentiles. They are that class of people unrelated to the Hebrew people and that same class of people Jesus did not pray for.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. John 17:8–10.
Jesus Himself makes distinction between "they/them" and the "world" of non-Hebrews. What this means is that Jesus is to die a sacrificial death that atones the sins of the children of Israel while the "world" of non-Hebrews (Gentiles) lives and die in their sins. Jesus' death is limited to the Hebrew people and extends to mixed-race Hebrews of the Diaspora. Abraham's seed is atoned and the seed of Ham and Japheth are not.
Jeremiah's New Covenant prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus but not entirely. There is still the Comforter which is preparing to arrive which God promised Israel by Joel who will inaugurate Jeremiah's New Covenant promise:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:33–34.
This ends the discussion and the theology of Gentile-inclusion in the salvation of the LORD.
The non-Hebrew world has no part in God's grace and are left to die in their sin.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Old Testament Scripture, please.
brightfame52
Active Member
Israel is the Church when again we look at and consider the redemption promise made to Israel Ps 130:7-8
7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
The Promise is that the Lord shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Now this is fulfilled in the church Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus is written to the Church, the Elect of God Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Its the same people, the Church, and Israel being redeemed from all iniquity ! No not ethnic national israel, they were a type, a shadow, but Spiritual Israel, Christs and Abrahams Spiritual seed. Gal 3:28-29
7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
The Promise is that the Lord shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Now this is fulfilled in the church Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus is written to the Church, the Elect of God Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Its the same people, the Church, and Israel being redeemed from all iniquity ! No not ethnic national israel, they were a type, a shadow, but Spiritual Israel, Christs and Abrahams Spiritual seed. Gal 3:28-29
brightfame52
Active Member
I gave you scripture
jeremiah1five
Active Member
There is no spiritual Israel if there is no natural or physical Israel.
God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed. God made covenant with the children of Jacob/Israel and it is recorded as such in the Hebrew Scripture. God made covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah found in Jeremiah 31.
You are confusion type with shadow and trying to make these words as though they were interchangeable.
Natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Israel when the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL came down from heaven with a mighty rushing wind and FILL the eleven disciples that were in the house (upper room.)
That day, which is recorded in Acts, was the beginning of natural Israel becoming spiritual Israel. It IS ethnic and that's the way God did it. Abraham was a real person and God made covenant with him and with his biological seed, a people called the children of Jacob/Israel.
You can't change what has been written. There is no spiritual Israel without an ethnic and physical Israel.
God promised natural, physical Israel and then God fulfilled promises made to natural physical Israel. There is no other Israel in existence.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You did not. Show me in the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture of a covenant between God and Gentiles.
You can't because it doesn't exist. And so you will post from the New Testament, but all the covenants God made with Abraham and his seed is found in the Hebrew Scripture. The Law is Hebrew, the Psalms is Hebrew, and the Prophets is Hebrew.
There is NO COVENANT in the Hebrew Bible between God and Gentiles. You can't even provide the NAME of any Gentile whom God made covenant with.
Why? Because it doesn't exist.
brightfame52
Active Member
ethnicity worhip
brightfame52
Active Member
I did
jeremiah1five
Active Member
I don't worship any ethnicity.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes you do, hebrew
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You've been accusing me for many weeks. I'm beginning to get offended by your unwarranted accusation that I worship ethnicity, worship Hebrew people. I am asking you to stop it. Your comprehension of my love and support for Jews and Israel as a nation is flawed. You are an antisemite. You hate Israel and anyone who hates Israel and the Jewish people cannot be a lover of God. Now stop.
brightfame52
Active Member
hebrew wordship
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