An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[GeneZ]

"Team truth" preached Calvinism for 20 years and called everyone heretical for disagreeing.

"Team truth" doesn't always preach the truth.

I remember as a kid other kids forming into cliques which protected one another's pride by running on the same bias.
Ironically, they share a common trend in their sin natures which they deny having.

For some? Theology is treated like a sport. We WIN! We WIN! YAYYYYY!

But we are supposed to put on the new man in Christ.
That only forms when sound doctrine reigns above our biases.

 

[GeneZ]

Would you say that Christ's soul is not created?

The question which you refused to answer was this....

.......................... Define "divine" and "divinely."

Not a peep! You do not fight fairly... You have yet to reveal some real integrity.

You do a lot of that. What you do is selectively putting me on Ignore to get your foot in the door.

 

[civic]

"Team truth" preached Calvinism for 20 years and called everyone heretical for disagreeing.

"Team truth" doesn't always preach the truth.

It became team truth after the departure

 

[GeneZ]

It became team truth after the departure

OHhhhh! So you believe in the Rapture.

 

[GeneZ]

"Team truth" preached Calvinism for 20 years and called everyone heretical for disagreeing.

​

"Heretic! Heretic! Nose on Fire!​

Nose is longer than a telephone wire!" ​

Its something they are instinctively (sin natures) adept at doing...

Just don't call them out on the facts and they will keep feeling secure doing it.

Its a form of brow beating technique that works on the uniformed...

 

[GeneZ]

The subject is physical death, not spiritual death. The standard defintion of physical death is separation of soul and body for which any attempt to change will be denied.

Very simple question:

When did Jesus utter the words? ..."It is finished!"

Was it before he died physically?
Or, after he died and was resurrected?

Now, answer that honestly?
And, you will be able to answer your own question.

 

[sawdust]

False. Never have I even hinted that Jesus' Personhood is human. What I see happening is that you're conflating personhood with soul. Soul is part of human nature. Human nature is made up of body, soul, and spirit. As such Christ can assume all that and retain his Divine Personhood

And yet you continue to negate His soul can be eternal because He must abide by all the human limitations that you perceive as true.
I am not conflating personhood with soul, your soul is the source of your personhood. Your body is what allows your personhood to be expressed. A (regenerated) human being is made up of spirit, soul and body, human nature comes from the soul. You won't stop being human when you die and have no body and your soul goes to heaven awaiting the resurrection.

You are now dancing around a clear problem that directly affects our salvation. Jesus must be in all ways human if he is to save us. If his soul is not human but divine, as GZ seems to claim, then we have a problem.

His soul is human, you have been told that a thousand times. Your inability to comprehend a soul can be eternal is the problem. You think it impossible for soul to exist without a body even though the Soul in question is united in the One person who is the Lord of Life Himself.

Where's the problem? Christ assumed human nature which is body and soul. I don't see the problem.

You on the other hand do have a problem. You are ascribing physical death to Jesus before the Incarnation. Something is not adding up in your logic and you're dancing around it.

You don't see the problem with Christ being partly created?
You are ascribing physical death to Jesus before the incarnation not me, because you can't get past the notion that a soul needs a body to be alive. You don't understand, a soul needs a body to be alive in this world which is why "a body you prepared for me". All our souls could exist waiting around in some back room of heaven if God wanted to do it that way. It is God who alone creates the soul, we do not get it from our parents.

To be clear, do you believe that Jesus still retains his human nature even now in Heaven?

Honestly, the fact you have to ask for clarity after how many times have I said the Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man ETERNALLY, makes me seriously wonder if you are even listening to what I say and seeing if there might be any truth in it.

I think we are done. You keep putting your erroneous definitions on my words and wondering why things don't add up.

Have a nice day.

 

[GeneZ]

His soul is human, you have been told that a thousand times. Your inability to comprehend a soul can be eternal is the problem. You think it impossible for soul to exist without a body even though the Soul in question is united in the One person who is the Lord of Life Himself.

He wants us to keep explaining it over and over like the Pharisees kept on wanting the blind man whom Jesus healed to keep explaining to them what happened...

26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! (we are orthodox!) ​

29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. ​

31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody ​

has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.​

Synergy's (and his friends) version of verse 34 could run like this....

​

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in heretical thinking how dare you lecture us!” ​

Its the same old story.
The sin natures remain the same.
Only the names have been changed to deflect the innocent.


...................Knowing the Word ....

......Scatters the herd!


grace and peace .........................

 

[synergy]

Very simple question:

If you want to make a point about why you're so willing to ascribe physical death to the preincarnate Word then just do it. Stop beating around the bush with questions and just tell us.

 

[GeneZ]

If you want to make a point about why you're so willing to ascribe physical death to the preincarnate Word then just do it. Stop beating around the bush with questions and just tell us.

I refuse to submit to your erroneous conclusion as to try to defend myself against a distortion that only proves you are not fit to assume the position you have taken for yourself.

 

[sawdust]

If you want to make a point about why you're so willing to ascribe physical death to the preincarnate Word then just do it. Stop beating around the bush with questions and just tell us.

Why don't you tell us why you keep wanting to make Him a human being subject to all the same limitations? He is God, He is more than capable of existing as Spirit and Soul in One person without a body.

And stop attributing your thinking to others, it's rude. You think it is ascribing physical death to Him because you are not capable of thinking outside the limits of being human. He is GOD!

 

[GeneZ]

Why don't you tell us why you keep wanting to make Him a human being subject to all the same limitations? He is God, He is more than capable of existing as Spirit and Soul in One person without a body.

And stop attributing your thinking to others, it's rude. You think it is ascribing physical death to Him because you are not capable of thinking outside the limits of being human. He is GOD!

He has deleted for discussing another poster.

 

[synergy]

I refuse to submit to your erroneous conclusion as to try to defend myself against a distortion that only proves you are not fit to assume the position you have taken for yourself.

Based on the standard definition of physical death (separation of soul and body) you are in fact ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word, who you say had a soul but no body yet. Case closed.

 

[synergy]

Why don't you tell us why you keep wanting to make Him a human being subject to all the same limitations? He is God, He is more than capable of existing as Spirit and Soul in One person without a body.

Jesus must be in all ways human if he is to save us. If his soul is not human but divine, as GZ seems to claim, then we have a massive problem on our hands.

And stop attributing your thinking to others, it's rude. You think it is ascribing physical death to Him because you are not capable of thinking outside the limits of being human. He is GOD!

The common standard definition of physical death is separation of soul and body. If you have a problem with that definition then you can register your complaint at your nearest Church and Christian Mortuary.

 

[synergy]

His human soul or his divine soul?

Why that question? Are you saying that Christ has two souls?

 

[Dizerner]

Why that question? Are you saying that Christ has two souls?

I would say rather his soul has two different forms? I think.

 

[synergy]

I would say rather his soul has two different forms? I think.

Both a created form and an uncreated (divine) form at the same time?

 

[Dizerner]

Both a created form and an uncreated (divine) form at the same time?

Yeah, I would tentatively say so. Including a will and mind and emotions, everything part of a soul.

I don't think Christ has two wills or two minds.

 

[synergy]

Yeah, I would tentatively say so. Including a will and mind and emotions, everything part of a soul.

I don't think Christ has two wills or two minds.

How can one thing be simultaneously created and uncreated at the same time? The only way I see it possible is if that one thing is separated into two. That is Nestorianism.

Christ actually does have two wills because Christ has two natures. Will is an attribute of nature. Two natures translates to two wills.

 

[Dizerner]

How can one thing be simultaneously created and uncreated at the same time? The only way I see it possible is if that one thing is separated into two. That is Nestorianism.

Christ actually does have two wills because Christ has two natures. Will is an attribute of nature. Two natures translates to two wills.

I strongly see will as an attribute of personhood rather than nature.

Nature is like a generic blueprint, it doesn't include the individuality of each soul.

The will is a personal thing, not a non-personal thing: few things are more personal than our wills, our very center of agency, the place where we play God of our own destiny and make our choices.

When you ask how something can be created and uncreated, you are asking something that applies to all forms of anyone who believes in the incarnation, not just my personal view.

And the way God does that is by squaring the circle, he just does it, I believe God is fundamentally above logic itself.