An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[GeneZ]

I refuse to claim that his soul was separated from his body before his Incarnation because that's by definition physical death. You are ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word. I don't understand why you're so willing to do that.

That is YOUR definition.

A soul that is being baptized directly into God is far from dead......
That uniquely honored soul infinitely more alive than any soul that is just in a body!
It does not need a body to be alive!

Being a soul, and being one with the essence of God? (pre-incarnate state of His soul)
Is what crowned that Soul with having divine attributes of power freely granted by the Father.
The Father who delegated that Soul to be having the ability to have every desire and thought fulfilled
by means of the power which is only attributed to God!

In that sense? Being a Soul so crowned by God?

Also grants Him the "title" of being called the Divine Soul.
If you were not such a sinful person by nature?
You could have been that soul!

We are all sinful.

None of us could be trusted with the Divine power granted alone to the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is why He alone receives such praise.......

"Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power; for
You created all things, and because of Your will, they existed and were created." Rev 4:11

"Lord and God! = Two natures in 'union.'

His Soul being totally empowered by Deity = Is our Lord.
He (his Soul) is the one who stands before us, being recognized to command and direct us, we who are souls.

We are not God. We are souls.
That is why He said....
No one comes to the Father except THROUGH Him!
Meaning? Through His Soul!

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Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. ​

No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6​

Take your time......

 

[sawdust]

How many humans do you know that have souls

Once again you seem to be insisting the Lord Jesus is a human person after steadfastly declaring He is not a human person. Make your mind up.

I refuse to claim that his soul was separated from his body before his Incarnation because that's by definition physical death. You are ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word. I don't understand why you're so willing to do that.

Gee, I dunno, maybe it's because He is the Lord of Life, utterly unique and is not subject to the same physical laws we are as He is not a human person?

Let's revisit why that would be a soteriological problem,

Sure but having a created soul isn't a problem at all for one who is eternal? Why don't you explain how that works?

Do you not understand that while He came to this earth and walked in the exact same capacity as a human being, He is not a human being and therefore not subject to all the limitations of being a human being unless He wills Himself to comply with such limitations?

Why oh why do you keep insisting he must comply within humanities boundaries? That only needed to happen for a certain time in order to die for our sins as a man.

 

[GeneZ]

Do you not understand that while He came to this earth and walked in the exact same capacity as a human being, He is not a human being and therefore not subject to all the limitations of being a human being unless He wills Himself to comply with such limitations?

Being also God?
Made that simple for Him to do.

For entering into the Incarnation he agreed to have His Soul not enabled by Deity beyond anything that any spiritually mature believer could experience when empowered by the Holy Spirit.

For example:

He could walk on water.
But, so could Peter!
Was Peter God? No!

Peter proved too weak in his faith to sustain what Jesus was perfect in faith for doing.
So, Peter after walking on water for a short time began to sink when his weak faith ran out on him.

Jesus was not by his own Deity enabling himself to walk on water. Grace was enabling Him.
Just like grace can work for us if we do not stop growing in grace and knowledge.
If we keep maturing by grace in knowledge?
And, if God so desired?
He could have us walk on water if it suited His plan for our life.

A major problem in understanding happens when someone mistakenly sees Jesus being God in power likened
to being some uncontrollable unbridled lust, as to always be exerting all power at all times.
Like a muscle man arrogantly flexing his muscles at the beach.

One needs to keep learning and growing in knowledge as to mature beyond their initial concept's understanding.
We begin with a basic understanding and must become more informed through continuous Bible doctrinal intake
if we are to mature in Christ. We must get into learning more and more knowledge and understanding of doctrine,
not simply memorizing creeds and heresies as if we are to appear on some TV quiz show vying for dollars..

grace and peace ..................

 

[GeneZ]

The Lord God of Israel prior to the Incarnation was always being two natures in Union!

His Soul was already existing!!!!!!!!!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, ​

I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'​

I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

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And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

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Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone ​

loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5 ​

If one can accept the Word of God first by faith? You are on your way for better understanding....

 

[GeneZ]

If one can accept the Word of God first by faith?
Initially, not understanding how something can be?​

If you do not stop seeking and growing? You are on the way for better understanding and maturing in Christ!

His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him ​

who called us by His own glory and goodness. ​

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By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in ​

the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. ​

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For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, godliness with brotherly ​

affection, and brotherly affection with love. ​

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For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being useless or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "​

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2 Peter 1:3-8 Holman Christian Standard Bible​

When Satan could not prevent a believer from gaining a basic understanding of a truth?
He will fight tooth and nail to keep that understanding kept in its "seed" stage.
Never allowing for water of the Word and light to enter to make it grow and produce the fruits of righteousness.

That is why we see some get ornery when you want to branch out and explore the vast frontier the Lord has set before us...

grace and peace .................

 

[synergy]

Further definition...
Its for your benefit.....

Divinely *designed* prototype was the intent.

God began with a prototype from which all human souls were to be based upon.

Now calm down.....

All that knowledge with no place to go can be frustrating.

You are off of Ignore unless you rage again...

Calm down.....

You use the words divine and divinely to describe Christ's soul, right? Now for everyone's clear understanding, is Christ's soul Divine or not in your estimation? I might have other questions.

 

[synergy]

That is YOUR definition.

The subject is physical death, not spiritual death. The standard defintion of physical death is separation of soul and body for which any attempt to change will be denied.

So again, by you claiming that Christ's soul was separated from his body before his Incarnation you are ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word. Why are you so willing to do that?

The rest of your talk was not about physical death and has been dismissed. Please stick to the subject.

 

[synergy]

Once again you seem to be insisting the Lord Jesus is a human person after steadfastly declaring He is not a human person. Make your mind up.

False. Never have I even hinted that Jesus' Personhood is human. What I see happening is that you're conflating personhood with soul. Soul is part of human nature. Human nature is made up of body, soul, and spirit. As such Christ can assume all that and retain his Divine Personhood

Gee, I dunno, maybe it's because He is the Lord of Life, utterly unique and is not subject to the same physical laws we are as He is not a human person?

You are now dancing around a clear problem that directly affects our salvation. Jesus must be in all ways human if he is to save us. If his soul is not human but divine, as GZ seems to claim, then we have a problem.

Sure but having a created soul isn't a problem at all for one who is eternal? Why don't you explain how that works?

Where's the problem? Christ assumed human nature which is body and soul. I don't see the problem.

You on the other hand do have a problem. You are ascribing physical death to Jesus before the Incarnation. Something is not adding up in your logic and you're dancing around it.

Do you not understand that while He came to this earth and walked in the exact same capacity as a human being, He is not a human being and therefore not subject to all the limitations of being a human being unless He wills Himself to comply with such limitations?

Why oh why do you keep insisting he must comply within humanities boundaries? That only needed to happen for a certain time in order to die for our sins as a man.

To be clear, do you believe that Jesus still retains his human nature even now in Heaven?

 

[civic]

False. Never have I even hinted that Jesus' Personhood is human. What I see happening is that you're conflating personhood with soul. Soul is part of human nature. Human nature is made up of body, soul, and spirit. As such Christ can assume all that and retain his Divine Personhood

You are now dancing around a clear problem that directly affects our salvation. Jesus must be in all ways human if he is to save us. If his soul is not human but divine, as GZ seems to claim, then we have a problem.

Where's the problem? Christ assumed human nature which is body and soul. I don't see the problem.

You on the other hand do have a problem. You are ascribing physical death to Jesus before the Incarnation. Something is not adding up in your logic and you're dancing around it.

To be clear, do you believe that Jesus still retains his human nature even now in Heaven?

Excellent biblical and historical/orthodox rebuttal.

Houston we have a problem ! If His humanity or Deity changed we have a Biblical, Trinitarian and Christological problem.

Truth is on trial.

 

[synergy]

Excellent biblical and historical/orthodox rebuttal.

Houston we have a problem ! If His humanity or Deity changed we have a Biblical, Trinitarian and Christological problem.

Truth is on trial.

Team Truth!
I think that's what your group/team called ourselves at CARM.

 

[civic]

Team Truth!
I think that's what your group/team called ourselves at CARM.

Yes and did it ever cause a stir lol

 

[GeneZ]

You use the words divine and divinely to describe Christ's soul, right? Now for everyone's clear understanding, is Christ's soul Divine or not in your estimation? I might have other questions.

Before anyone can answer you?

How do you define the words you are throwing around?
You may have one definition, and another person a different one...

Define "divine" and "divinely."

The woman tasted her first bite as the waiter was walking away.
She looked at her husband and exclaimed...
This tastes simply 'divine!'

Later, when she saw the chef when she was leaving and told him....

That meal was divinely prepared! You must have angels in the kitchen!

Your presentation was wonderful.... and your bisque was simply divine!


Words! They mean something different to different people.

 

[GeneZ]

Excellent biblical and historical/orthodox rebuttal.

Says who?

 

[GeneZ]

Excellent biblical and historical/orthodox rebuttal.

Houston we have a problem ! If His humanity or Deity changed we have a Biblical, Trinitarian and Christological problem.

Truth is on trial.

Truth is never on trial..
Its an attempt to make one's bias to stand as truth, is what gets placed on trial.

.... let's show em how good we are boys! We'll get em!

The Lord is both judge and jury... There is no trial. You are on trial. Not truth.

 

[GeneZ]

Excellent biblical and historical/orthodox rebuttal.

........ How does one define.. "mutual admiration society?"

Is there a cure for it?

 

[GeneZ]

You use the words divine and divinely to describe Christ's soul, right? Now for everyone's clear understanding, is Christ's soul Divine or not in your estimation? I might have other questions.

Are your words divine?

 

[synergy]

Before anyone can answer you?

How do you define the words you are throwing around?
You may have one definition, and another person a different one...

Define "divine" and "divinely."

Would you say that Christ's soul is not created?

 

[GeneZ]

Would you say that Christ's soul is not created?

To be created?
What was created?
Had to come into being while taking place in time in order to have a beginning!

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:3​

That means? For his soul to be created?
Time would have had to be already created and existing so that his soul would have a beginning.

Yet? He even created 'time!'

Therefore He had to precede all creation.
For all things were created for and through Him!

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones
or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16

Faith in part is the ability to accept what one does not yet understand based upon trusting in the veracity of God .

First comes faith.
Then comes understanding.
Which leads us into wisdom.

 

[Dizerner]

Would you say that Christ's soul is not created?

His human soul or his divine soul?

 

[Dizerner]

Yes and did it ever cause a stir lol

"Team truth" preached Calvinism for 20 years and called everyone heretical for disagreeing.

"Team truth" doesn't always preach the truth.