That's why good solid groundings in what you believe in is needed so that heretics cannot hyjack/sabotage what you as a Christian do believe in.
An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Ok. I understand what you are saying now. @GeneZ doesn't say he had a Divine soul as distinct from a human soul. He says the Pre-incarnate word is Spirit and Soul or God and man or Deity and humanity. His soul is 100% human as witnessed to in the Incarnation. It is how he can relate God to us in human terms we understand. If He had a Divine Soul, we would still be none the wiser to being able to understand Deity for Deity is completely other that what we are.Here are excerpts discussing Apollinarianism from the link below. Dr Craig made a new version called neo-Apollinarianism but both versions fundamentally fail by saying that Jesus had a Divine soul, not a human soul.
Apollinarianism
When we read in John 1:14 that “the Word became flesh,” we recognize that Jesus took on a human body. But did Christ take on a human soul too? Today, Barry Cooper discusses a fourth-century heresy that seems slightly off but actually makes a world of difference.www.ligonier.org
When we read in John 1:14 that “the Word became flesh,” we recognize that Jesus took on a human body. But did Christ take on a human soul too? Today, Barry Cooper discusses a fourth-century heresy that seems slightly off but actually makes a world of difference.
Perhaps you’ve heard the phrase “the Word became flesh” in John chapter 1. So clearly, Jesus had a human body. But let me ask you: Did He have a human soul too?
If your answer to that is no, and you imagine Jesus as being a divine soul in a human body, that’s actually a heresy called Apollinarianism.
This teaching originated with a man called Apollinaris way back in the fourth century. (The early church condemned him as a heretic in 381.) Apollinaris was the bishop of Laodicea, a city which is name-checked in Colossians and Revelation, in the country we now call Turkey.
In an attempt to explain exactly how Jesus Christ could be both God and man, Apollinaris taught that the physical body of Christ was truly man, but that His mind wasn’t human at all, but divine. So in other words, the body and mind of Jesus were not both truly God and truly man. The body was truly man, and the mind was truly God.
Now, why does any of this matter? Well, if Jesus actually were as Apollinaris described Him, then Jesus would not be able to save anyone. He can save human beings precisely because He is a human being Himself. Only a human being can mediate on behalf of human beings. If He’s only partially human, then He can’t mediate for us, and He can’t die for us either. Hebrews chapter 10 reminds us that nonhuman sacrifices (for example, animal sacrifices) are powerless to atone for human sin. So if Jesus is only partly human, which would be the case if He lacked a human mind and soul, He can’t bear the punishment humans deserve on our behalf. Neither can He be the last Adam, sent to succeed where the first Adam failed. And so on. But thankfully, we have a great Savior: truly God and truly man.
I trust he will correct me here if I have misunderstood but I don't think I have.
You also need to understand properly what is being said before you can label it. So far you just keep getting it wrong.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Ok. I understand what you are saying now. @GeneZ doesn't say he had a Divine soul as distinct from a human soul. He says the Pre-incarnate word is Spirit and Soul or God and man or Deity and humanity. His soul is 100% human as witnessed to in the Incarnation. It is how he can relate God to us in human terms we understand. If He had a Divine Soul, we would still be none the wiser to being able to understand Deity for Deity is completely other that what we are.
I trust he will correct me here if I have misunderstood but I don't think I have.
Sometimes it seems like trying to train a fruit fly how to use a can of Raid.
Here are your words about Christ's Soul:Sometimes it seems like trying to train a fruit fly how to use a can of Raid.
Let's see who's the "fruit fly" now.
So? Who said soul can't be eternal?
Our human souls are created but who is it based on?
DavidTree
Well-known member
Name me one human who has an eternal/"not created" soul.
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Diserner
Well-known member
Bob Dunkin from Ruso, North Dakota.
Nobody really knows how he did it, but there you go.
How about Elvis down here in the south? "Elvis Lives!" is a common phrase down here.
But seriously, @sawdust needs to clearly define her "not created" soul beliefs.
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Diserner
Well-known member
What has that got to do with anything? Are you now saying Jesus is a human person? Why do you keep comparing Him to every other human?
GeneZ
Well-known member
The Lord's Soul was the divine prototype for our souls.
That is one way in which we were created in His image.
If His Soul was directly "begotten" of the Father?
And, not 'created?'
His Soul was always being.. Begotten from "outside of time."
The Father is always being "outside of time."
Before anything was created?
(And, keep in mind, time was an invention of God.
God "created" time as we know it...
But before anything was created?
Outside of Time?
The Father "begot" the Soul of His Son.
Since something created needs time to be a creation?
Created things exist having a beginning?
Outside of time? = eternity. He had no beginning...
Yes... Its beyond our normal sense of comprehension and we must accept it by faith...
Its that "faith" part that frustrates a few who stubbornly insist that everything be over simplified as to line up with man's limited concept of reality.
The Soul of the Son was begotten outside of time.
Since His Soul was having no beginning possible, because all created things have a beginning.
And, a beginning takes place when they are established at some point in time...
The Soul of the Son must be accepted by faith as being eternal.
Its comprehension will remain a mystery until we find ourselves staring eternity in His face...
Some here with their kind of mental attitude if they were on the boat with Jesus? And, he lifted them up to place them on the water
to walk on it? They would have been kicking and screaming... even cursing...because they were failing to develop the faith God requires be able to calmly accept by faith certain mysteries God wants to reveal to us.
So they will defensively cast blame on those walking by faith about things they see as a threat to their natural way of thinking...
"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it,
but whoever loses their life for me will find it."
Mat 16:25
Those who want to save their life? They fear and get angry at the water that God wants us to walk on.... BY FAITH!
grace and peace!
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I have a nephew who loves the Lord Jesus but really struggles to comprehend God had no beginning. Eternity can be a hard pill to swallow when you have never experienced it. As you say, we walk by faith which is not blind as some think, but is trusting in the "it is written" and having that Word become one with our soul. This is why faith is assurance and confidence in the unseen because it is the Lord Himself alive and at work within us.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
@sawdust
I highlighted above where @GeneZ believes that the Preincarnate Word always had a Divine soul, as opposed to receiving a human soul at his Incarnation.
I forwarded information on how that is classified as Apollinarianism error. Here is that information again:
Now why is that a problem?
Everything in blue text is sourced from this web site:
Apollinarianism
When we read in John 1:14 that “the Word became flesh,” we recognize that Jesus took on a human body. But did Christ take on a human soul too? Today, Barry Cooper discusses a fourth-century heresy that seems slightly off but actually makes a world of difference.
www.ligonier.org
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Jesus was very clear about Himself.
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Guess who He was talking to?
Religious people who insisted Messiah was just like them.
I'm not blind, I saw all that. I told you he would not say Christ had a Divine soul but once again, you didn't listen. You're inability to comprehend His humanity (Soul) can be eternal is the problem. You would have him 100% Uncreated (Deity) and 100% created (humanity). I don't see how that can work.@sawdust
I highlighted above where @GeneZ believes that the Preincarnate Word always had a Divine soul, as opposed to receiving a human soul at his Incarnation.
I forwarded information on how that is classified as Apollinarianism error. Here is that information again:
Now why is that a problem?
Everything in blue text is sourced from this web site:
Apollinarianism
When we read in John 1:14 that “the Word became flesh,” we recognize that Jesus took on a human body. But did Christ take on a human soul too? Today, Barry Cooper discusses a fourth-century heresy that seems slightly off but actually makes a world of difference.
Hebrews 10:5
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;
The "me" in that verse is the Divine person of the Lord Jesus Christ who is and has always been 100% God and 100% humanity in one person. He did not take on a created soul, He took on flesh.
So a soul that is
- "the Divine prototype"
- "begotten from "outside of time.""
Why don't you ask @GeneZ point blank: is Christ's soul Divine or not?
I refuse to claim that his soul was separated from his body before his Incarnation because that's by definition physical death. You are ascribing physical death to the preincarnate Word. I don't understand why you're so willing to do that.
Let's revisit why that would be a soteriological problem, apart from ascribing him physical death during his preincarnate period:
GeneZ
Well-known member
One can not rage against something when shown its not what they want to rage against.
Reasonableness has its place....
But, so does this also.
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned." Titus 3:10-11
That can be hard to do when you find yourself walking through his neighborhood.
Its not that they disagree.
Its how they disagree.
Who are we to think we can do a better job than the Holy Spirit?
God uses our mind and our personality.
While God makes His point to be accepted, or rejected.
And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you;
it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
1 Samuel 8:7
That happens every now and then.... Its a spiritual principle in the warfare we face daily. Hope that helps!
GeneZ
Well-known member
Further definition...
Its for your benefit.....
Divinely *designed* prototype was the intent.
God began with a prototype from which all human souls were to be based upon.
Now calm down.....
All that knowledge with no place to go can be frustrating.
You are off of Ignore unless you rage again...
Calm down.....
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