An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

Wilber said:
Awesome thanks. It looks like this thread has all the information I needed. A lot of really good posts.

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Psa_51:5
NIV seems to teach original sin, or the idea that ofter the sin of Adam soemthing was changed in his nature, and all acts of his descendants are determined by inheriting his "sinful nature." To affirm the idea of "Adamic" or "inherited" sin, the NIV renders "flesh" as "sinful nature" in Rom_7:17, 25; 8:2-3, 5, 8, 12; 13:14; 1Co_5:5; Gal_5:13, 16, 19, 24; 6:8; Eph_2:3; and Col_2:11, 13.
- - - - - - - -
His "mother" was in sin-- that is, without the congregation, without the right to enter the tabernacle in worship.
Deu_23:2
Cf. Psa_58:3; and Job_31:18
See also Deu_1:39; and Gen_8:21
 
GeneZ said:
What is an example of a sinful nature?

''Hatred'' (Gk echthra), i.e., intense, hostile intentions and acts; extreme dislike or enmity.

“Discord'' (Gk eris) quarreling, antagonism; a struggle for superiority (Rom 1:29; 1 Cor 1:11;3:3 )

''Jealousy'' (Gk zelos), i.e., resentfulness, envy of another's success (Rom 13:13; 1Cor 3:3)



My gosh! I just realized that some I needed to put on Ignore have a sin nature!


grace and peace ....................
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Put yourself on ignore just to be safe.
 
GeneZ said:
What is an example of a sinful nature?

''Hatred'' (Gk echthra), i.e., intense, hostile intentions and acts; extreme dislike or enmity.

“Discord'' (Gk eris) quarreling, antagonism; a struggle for superiority (Rom 1:29; 1 Cor 1:11;3:3 )

''Jealousy'' (Gk zelos), i.e., resentfulness, envy of another's success (Rom 13:13; 1Cor 3:3)



My gosh! I just realized that some I needed to put on Ignore have a sin nature!


grace and peace ....................
Click to expand...
Don't worry-

Rom_1:29

Rom_1:29-31 Paul lists vices that characterize those who reject God. Lists like this are common in Paul’s writing. Sometimes he gives them to instruct the righteous on how to live (Rom_13:13; Gal_5:19-21; Col_3:5). Other times, as he does here, Paul uses these lists to describe the ungodly (1Co_6:9-10; 1Ti_1:9-10).

1:29–31 This list of sins follows a popular Hellenistic literary form called a vice list. While not exhaustive, it reminds readers of various forms that evil might take. - NLTSB


being filled with -- Humans are filled and characterized by what they dwell upon. The rabbis would say that in every human heart is a black (evil yetzer) dog and a white (good yetzer) dog. The one who is fed the most becomes the largest. - Utley

unrighteousness -- It is a general word describing the evil effects in human relations that man’s suppressing the knowledge of God produces.
Unrighteousness, ἀδικια. This is a word denoting injustice, or iniquity in general. The particular specifications of the iniquity follow. - BN

sexual immorality --

[evil -- wickedness -- ] . . is what is contrary to what is right or just. Wickedness (evil, NIV) is what is vile and sinister.
Wickedness. The word used here denotes a desire of injuring others; or, as we should express it, malice. BN

covetousness . . [greed] -- Greed is the drive to obtain more.
Covetousness. Avarice, or the desire of obtaining that which belongs to others.

Greed (πλεονεξία, pleonexia ... greed is the insatiable desire to accumulate more and more things in general, without regard for the rights and needs of others. Col_3:5 says that this sin is idolatry, because acquisition of things becomes one’s god. - CPNIV

maliciousness -- Same word as 1Pe_2:1, (where E. V. “malice,”) 16. The Gr. is a wider word than these English words. - CBSC
Depravity (κακία, kakia). Barclay says it is “the most general Greek word for badness.… It is the degeneracy out of which all sins grow and in which all sins flourish” - CPNIV

full of envy -- Lit. brimful; a word as strong as possible.

Envy (φθόνος, phthonos). It means not just wanting what another person has, but also resenting that person for having it. It is an attitude of ill-will and jealousy that leads to division and strife and even murder. - CPNIV

murder -- The taking of human life with premeditated malice.

strife . .“Insolent” focuses on activities, “arrogant” on thoughts, and “boastful” on words
...the word in the original meant also contention, strife, altercation, connected with anger and heated zeal; Rom_13:13; 1Co_1:11; 1Co_3:3; 2Co_12:20; Gal_5:20: Php_1:15; 1Ti_6:4; Tit_3:9. This contention and strife would, of course, follow from malice and covetousness, &c. - BN

deceit -- (δόλος, dolos), guile, treachery, cunning, hypocrisy. This denotes fraud, falsehood.

evil mindedness -- [malignity, malice] -- Our “ill-nature” exactly.
Malignity. This word signifies here, not malignity in general, but that particular species of it which consists in misinterpreting the words or actions of others, or putting the worst construction on their conduct. - BN

Hendriksen says it indicates “the desire to harm people”.

whisperers -- [gossips] -- (ψιθυριστής, psithuristēs) Those who secretly, and in a sly manner, by hints and inuendoes, detract from others, or excite suspicion of them. - BN
... literally, “whisperers,” or those who whisper gossip into someone’s ear behind another’s back. They are talebearers, rumormongers, “whisperers-behind-doors” (Phillips) who spread their slanders secretly. - CP
 
Johann said:
Don't worry-

Rom_1:29

Rom_1:29-31 Paul lists vices that characterize those who reject God. Lists like this are common in Paul’s writing. Sometimes he gives them to instruct the righteous on how to live (Rom_13:13; Gal_5:19-21; Col_3:5). Other times, as he does here, Paul uses these lists to describe the ungodly (1Co_6:9-10; 1Ti_1:9-10).

1:29–31 This list of sins follows a popular Hellenistic literary form called a vice list. While not exhaustive, it reminds readers of various forms that evil might take. - NLTSB


being filled with -- Humans are filled and characterized by what they dwell upon. The rabbis would say that in every human heart is a black (evil yetzer) dog and a white (good yetzer) dog. The one who is fed the most becomes the largest. - Utley

unrighteousness -- It is a general word describing the evil effects in human relations that man’s suppressing the knowledge of God produces.
Unrighteousness, ἀδικια. This is a word denoting injustice, or iniquity in general. The particular specifications of the iniquity follow. - BN

sexual immorality --

[evil -- wickedness -- ] . . is what is contrary to what is right or just. Wickedness (evil, NIV) is what is vile and sinister.
Wickedness. The word used here denotes a desire of injuring others; or, as we should express it, malice. BN

covetousness . . [greed] -- Greed is the drive to obtain more.
Covetousness. Avarice, or the desire of obtaining that which belongs to others.

Greed (πλεονεξία, pleonexia ... greed is the insatiable desire to accumulate more and more things in general, without regard for the rights and needs of others. Col_3:5 says that this sin is idolatry, because acquisition of things becomes one’s god. - CPNIV

maliciousness -- Same word as 1Pe_2:1, (where E. V. “malice,”) 16. The Gr. is a wider word than these English words. - CBSC
Depravity (κακία, kakia). Barclay says it is “the most general Greek word for badness.… It is the degeneracy out of which all sins grow and in which all sins flourish” - CPNIV

full of envy -- Lit. brimful; a word as strong as possible.

Envy (φθόνος, phthonos). It means not just wanting what another person has, but also resenting that person for having it. It is an attitude of ill-will and jealousy that leads to division and strife and even murder. - CPNIV

murder -- The taking of human life with premeditated malice.

strife . .“Insolent” focuses on activities, “arrogant” on thoughts, and “boastful” on words
...the word in the original meant also contention, strife, altercation, connected with anger and heated zeal; Rom_13:13; 1Co_1:11; 1Co_3:3; 2Co_12:20; Gal_5:20: Php_1:15; 1Ti_6:4; Tit_3:9. This contention and strife would, of course, follow from malice and covetousness, &c. - BN

deceit -- (δόλος, dolos), guile, treachery, cunning, hypocrisy. This denotes fraud, falsehood.

evil mindedness -- [malignity, malice] -- Our “ill-nature” exactly.
Malignity. This word signifies here, not malignity in general, but that particular species of it which consists in misinterpreting the words or actions of others, or putting the worst construction on their conduct. - BN

Hendriksen says it indicates “the desire to harm people”.

whisperers -- [gossips] -- (ψιθυριστής, psithuristēs) Those who secretly, and in a sly manner, by hints and inuendoes, detract from others, or excite suspicion of them. - BN
... literally, “whisperers,” or those who whisper gossip into someone’s ear behind another’s back. They are talebearers, rumormongers, “whisperers-behind-doors” (Phillips) who spread their slanders secretly. - CP
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An awareness of the true nature of sin and its deadly character, brings the sinner to see his need of salvation— the very purpose God intended the law to serve (Gal_3:19-22). (MSB)

* “the sinful nature” [NIV] is literally “the flesh” ( σάρξ, sarx). I believe that faithful exegesis leads us to reject the prevalent understanding of sarx as “sinful nature” (contra the NIV), and see it as referring to the unredeemed physical body. Thus, what the NIV calls “the desires of the sinful nature” here are the same as the lusts or “evil desires” of the “mortal body” in Rom_6:12 (see JC, 1:401–402). - CPNIV [underline is WG]
 
Wilber said:
This thread seems to be pretty mellow. You have to have somewhat of a tough skin to do online forums.
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I have learned how Christians who walk in their flesh are no surprise to me.

Disappointing to see. Jesus was acquainted with sorrows for that reason.

Self righteousness sees no wrong when evil is the modus operandi.
 
sawdust said:
I'm not seeing your point. You said originally that Christ's flesh was Deity on the basis it was prepared (not Divinely Begotten) by God and without sin, but so was Adam's body. You don't consider Adam's body to be Deity do you? I'm sure you don't, just asking to be sure. :)


His body wasn't Deity or it wouldn't have been able to die.
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Adam's body was made directly from the dust of the earth.

#1 - The LORD's body was made directly from the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.
#2 - Concerning the LORD's Body = Death ONLY can operate where sin has been committed is in the Body/Person.


Do we know, for a fact that JESUS body would of died without Him giving up the Spirit?

What i state here at this point is not biblical doctrine but only something to consider and muse over in the light of scripture when the LORD said:
1st - "Father into your hands I commit my Spirit" and HE gave up His Body to Death.
2nd - “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Conclusion: We will find out in Heaven, whether or not JESUS Body would of died had HE removed His Spirit from that Body.

My personal opinion is that because HE committed no sin, no death could come upon His body.
 
GeneZ said:
I have learned how Christians who walk in their flesh are no surprise to me.

Disappointing to see. Jesus was acquainted with sorrows for that reason.

Self righteousness sees no wrong when evil is the modus operandi.
Click to expand...
I hear you, It's much better to walk in the light as he is in the light.
 
GeneZ said:
Bring on rightly dividing the Word of God.
That's the tough one....
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I think you can do it as a matter of fact I bet you're really good at it. What is your favorite topic if you don't mind my asking? I'm pretty new so I don't know what you're into.
 
DavidTree said:
Adam's body was made directly from the dust of the earth.

#1 - The LORD's body was made directly from the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.
#2 - Death ONLY can operate where sin has been committed is in the Body/Person.


Do we know, for a fact that JESUS body would of died without Him giving up the Spirit?

What i state here at this point is not biblical doctrine but only something to consider and muse over in the light of scripture when the LORD said:
1st - "Father into your hands I commit my Spirit" and HE gave up His Body to Death.
2nd - “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Conclusion: We will find out in Heaven, whether or not JESUS Body would of died had HE removed His Spirit from that Body.

My personal opinion is that because HE committed no sin, no death could come upon His body.
Click to expand...
If Adam didn't sin, he wouldn't have died either. I think you are assuming because the methodology was different between the formation of Adam's body and the preparing of Christ's body, it must mean they were made of different stuff. Both were earthly bodies.
 
sawdust said:
Not his nature, his flesh changed and that is what we inherit, that genetic corruption. It works against the mind (human nature).
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Thanks brother-but I would like to see Scripture references.

* “The sinful nature” [NIV] is literally “the flesh” (σάρξ, sarx). As explained earlier (JC, 1:373–377), I believe that faithful exegesis leads us to reject the prevalent understanding of sarx as “sinful nature” (contra the NIV), and see it as referring to the unredeemed physical body. Thus, what the NIV calls “the desires of the sinful nature” here are the same as the lusts or “evil desires” of the “mortal body” in Rom_6:12 (see JC, 1:401–402). - CPNIV [underline is WG]
 
Johann said:
Any Scripture references as to this statement brother?
Click to expand...
Hello Brother - Please note that i said it was my OPINION that JESUS Body could not die unless HE permitted it.

Here are the scriptures:

John 10:17-18
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

James 1:12-15
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Quick Note: No sin = no death =



TRUTH/FACT CHECK:
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

1 Cor 15:21 - For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 Cor 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
 

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