An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

I think you are playing a game of not knowing the definition of the Trinity. I line up with the creeds and scripture and every Protestant denomination that has the Trinity in their statement of faith.
lol I’ve defended the Trinity from much more astute people with biblical degrees. :) who also read and translate greek
I think people have different definitions as to what the trinity actually represents, and what it says about the Godhead. Most, of not all, Christians agree that there are 3 beings/persons/entities... Connected to the divine. Father, Son, and holy Spirit. Where everyone differs is their connectedness. How they are one. That unity, as per the creeds, is what defines the trinity doctrine, and is where most people begin to develop into writers fanciful assumptions that bear little or no relation to the truth. Even smoking those who testify to the divinity of the Son and His full humanity, disagree with one another regarding the unity and relationship He has with the Father, and further, the role of the holy Spirit. And it starts with how we consider that union to be manifested in the Godhead... And because God hasn't revealed how the 3 persons of the Godhead are in union, the trinity ends up being based on man's assumptions. It gets worse when we use those assumptions as a test for church membership. Even worse still when we persecute those who disagree with the assumptions.
 
What is the soul? From scripture please.

You do not have one?

We all have a soul....


May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ."


1 Thessalonians 5:23


The soul is our everlasting immaterial life that gives us self consciousness.

Our soul is to our body, as a driver is to an automobile.

When you want to reach out and grab something? It is your soul that has the control over the body to do so..

God created the human body to be our soul's biological vehicle to navigate ourselves around in the material world we live in.

Its with your soul that you believed in Jesus Christ.
 
The soul is our everlasting immaterial life that gives us self consciousness.
Sounds very nice and religious and super spiritual... But you won't find that I'm scripture, but really available in New Age spiritualism.
Our soul is to our body, as a driver is to an automobile.
Mmm. I think you are confused.
When you want to reach out and grab something? It is your soul that has the control over the body to do so..

God created the human body to be our soul's biological vehicle to navigate ourselves around in the material world we live in.

Its with your soul that you believed in Jesus Christ.
The last paragraph I can agree with. But it doesn't tell you what the soul is. I believe with my mind/heart/even my life. Now if that is what you believe the soul to be, Kei te pai. But I think later NT texts that mention soul, body, spirit etc must be first harmonized with OT texts, and understood accordingly. One cannot have them contradicting each other.
KJV Genesis 2:3, 7
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man want given a pre existent soul. He became a soul with the fishing of body and spirit. Man is a holistic being. Take away one part, the body or the breath of life, and the man/soul ceases to be. One part cannot live without the other. Basic medical science. Man is not, in any way shape or form, an eternal being. We lost that privilege in the garden. That's why it must come to us as a gift as we receive forgiveness in the Atonement.
 
I think people have different definitions as to what the trinity actually represents, and what it says about the Godhead. Most, of not all, Christians agree that there are 3 beings/persons/entities... Connected to the divine. Father, Son, and holy Spirit. Where everyone differs is their connectedness. How they are one. That unity, as per the creeds, is what defines the trinity doctrine, and is where most people begin to develop into writers fanciful assumptions that bear little or no relation to the truth. Even smoking those who testify to the divinity of the Son and His full humanity, disagree with one another regarding the unity and relationship He has with the Father, and further, the role of the holy Spirit. And it starts with how we consider that union to be manifested in the Godhead... And because God hasn't revealed how the 3 persons of the Godhead are in union, the trinity ends up being based on man's assumptions. It gets worse when we use those assumptions as a test for church membership. Even worse still when we persecute those who disagree with the assumptions.
Sorry about all the grammatical errors.
 
Sounds very nice and religious and super spiritual... But you won't find that I'm scripture, but really available in New Age spiritualism.

If I can not define a soul using Scripture?
Do you still have a soul?

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain
because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud
voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth
and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to
wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,
were killed just as they had been." Revelation 6:9-11​

Well in Heaven where its not a material world like we have here?
Souls can cry out and be heard by God.

Now, from knowing that much?
Using common sense from what we can know from Scripture.
You tell me what a soul is, please?

And, while you're at it?
Prove by using Scripture that you are alive.

Inane arguments are made according to men's rules as a means to "rule."
 
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Thus, what the NIV calls “the desires of the sinful nature” here are the same as the lusts or “evil desires” of the “mortal body” in Rom_6:12 (see JC, 1:401–402). - CPNIV [underline is WG]
So about this question does MAN have a sinful nature, upon birth. I've read the arguments from many good posters here. I still tend to lean that man does, but sinful nature to what degree is another matter. I do not believe in TD in any such way that a Calvinist does but I do believe mankind's nature has been degenerated. What leads me to lean towards a position that MAN does is for what I read in Eph 2:3 and 2 Peter 1:4 and Eze 36:26 and things to do with the beginning with Adam/Eve in the garden. .

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.Eph 2:3
Then we have 2 Pt 1:4 which says we've become partakers of the divine nature. I would say the fruits of the Spirit is allowing that divine nature to flow through us.

Then for me I consider Ez 36:26

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

They nor us outside of Christ can keep the law.....we didn't have the spiritual capabilities to do so. I believe that's why Jesus told Nicodemus he and all humanity needed to be born again. Jn 3:3 I don't believe Christianity is merely us trying to reform ourselves but rather that we're transformed....that is God's nature imparted within us.....the LOVE of God being shed abroad in your hearts.

Then I consider this....I ask what about Adam and Eve before they sinned or what if they had not sinned? Seems like God built within them the capacities not to sin and thus they could have continued forever never having sinned. We do know scripture says they would have been taken to the tree of life and lived forever had they not sinned.

I won't say these things constitute absolute proof but I do consider it a certain way. Now I know many could ask about children or ones just being born.....I think there's always questions that can be asked about a certain paradigm.....I don't claim I've got every answer in regard to this but I do believe all children make heaven their home and that there is an age of accountability.

Of course God hasn't told us what that is and can be different for different people based on spiritual maturely and comprehension......and seeing it's not mentioned in the bible.....something not mentioned wouldn't mean it's not true. God has said the secret things belongs to the Lord.....thing is though if God mentioned of such an age people would fall back on that and consider they don't need to serve God until years later so for sure he'd see no purpose in telling humanity this.

Anyway those are me thoughts. Could I be wrong....yeah sure.....If i see good arguments to change what I believe I don't have any longing passion to say I'm right in all this.....some subjects I most certain do.....but not this. God Bless. :)
 
And it starts with how we consider that union to be manifested in the Godhead... And because God hasn't revealed how the 3 persons of the Godhead are in union, the trinity ends up being based on man's assumptions. It gets worse when we use those assumptions as a test for church membership. Even worse still when we persecute those who disagree with the assumptions.
Yeah I agree. I believe we need to believe in the Trinity but some I think especially in the Middle Ages had so much time on their hands they tried to dissect and define every notion they had and make their opinions an infallible way of thinking.

It can be so very, very easy to cast off dear genuine brethren and what can be worse those doing the casting off may not themselves have the love of God in their hearts. To some of them theology is their god.....and they may not even have the God of the theology in their lives. That's not to minimize theology we MUST have that....but make sure it's not many times just a portrayal of one's one personal convictions. Know when to admit that it is.
 
Romans 7:23
23 But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members.

Your body wages war against your mind. Your body is governed by the laws of physics. Your mind is governed by your human nature which was created in the image of God. Problem is, as soon as God imputes our soul into these corrupted bodies? We are in deep doo da. Apart from the sin nature tempting us to be self serving, we are also dead to knowing God and without any capacity to know Him. That is the body of death we are born into.
Learn church history on the sin nature and freedom of the will.

None Deny that the Early Church

Taught the Freedom of the Will


Episcopius said, “What is plainer than that the ancient divines, for three hundred years after Christ, those at least who flourished before St. Augustine, maintained the liberty of our will, or an indifference to two contrary things, free from all internal and external necessity!”30 One would think that if a doctrine was truly derived from the Scriptures and were taught by the Apostles, that we would find that the Early Church believed it, especially during its years when it was the most faithful to God, when men were shedding their blood in martyrdom in the Roman Coliseum. But the doctrine of total inability was not taught by the Churches which the Apostles founded; rather, the doctrine of man’s natural ability was.

Regarding the term “free will,” John Calvin admitted “As to the Fathers, (if their authority weighs with us,) they have the term constantly in their mouths…”31 He said, “The Greek fathers above others” have taught “the power of the human will”32 and “they have not been ashamed to make use of a much more arrogant expression calling man ‘free agent or self-manager,’ just as if man had a power to govern himself…”33 He also said, “The Latin fathers have always retained the word ‘free will’ as if man stood yet upright.”34 It is a fact that cannot be denied even by those who most ardently oppose the doctrine of free will, that the doctrine of free will and not that of inability was held by all of the Early Church.

Walter Arthur Copinger said, “All the Fathers are unanimous on the freedom of the human will…”35 Lyman Beecher said, “the free will and natural ability of man were held by the whole church…”36 And Dr Wiggers said, “All the fathers…agreed with the Pelagians, in attributing freedom of will to man in his present state.”37 This is a very important point because whenever a person today holds to the belief that all men have the natural ability to obey God or not to obey Him, or that man’s nature still retains the faculty of free will and can choose between these two alternatives and possibilities, he is almost immediately accused of being a heretical “Pelagian” by the Calvinists. This accusation is being unfair to the position of free will since all of the Early Church Fathers held to free will long before Pelagius even existed.

The Pelagians agreed with free will, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who agrees with free will is a Pelagian. Such reasoning is as fallacious as saying that everyone who believes in the virgin birth is a Catholic. While the Catholics believe in the virgin birth, that belief is not exclusively Catholic, thus it is fallacious to say that everyone who believes in the virgin birth is a Catholic.

Likewise the Pelagians believed in free will, but the belief in free will is not exclusively a Pelagian doctrine. Therefore, not everyone who believes in free will is a Pelagian. Williston Walker said that even in Pelagius’ own day, Pelagius’ teaching on “the freedom of the human will” was “in agreement with many in the West” and with “the East generally…”38

Asa Mahan said that free will “was the doctrine of the primitive church for the first four or five centuriesafter the Bible was written, the church which received the ‘lively oracles’ directly from the hands of some of those by whom they were written, to wit: the writers of the New Testament. It should be borne in mind here, that at the time the sacred canon was completed, the doctrine of Necessity was held by the leading sects in the Jewish Church. It was also the fundamental article of the creed of all the sects in philosophy throughout the world, as well as of all the forms of heathenism then extant. If the doctrine of Necessity, as its advocates maintain, is the doctrine taught the church by inspired apostles and the writers of the New Testament, we should not fail to find, under such circumstances, the churches planted by them, rooted and grounded in this doctrine.”39 Rather, we find that absolutely all of the Early Church affirmed free will and explicitly denied the doctrine of total inability. If the doctrine of total inability was taught by the Apostles, you would expect that their faithful disciples who gave their lives in martyrdom would have taught it; but as we have seen, they did not.

David Bercot said, “The Early Christians didn’t believe that man is totally depraved [totally unable] and incapable of doing any good. They taught that humans are capable of obeying and loving God.”40 He went on to say, “There was a religious group, labeled as heretics by the early Christians… they taught that man is totally depraved [totally unable]… the group I’m referring to are the Gnostics.”41

When reading the writings of the early Christians, you would think by some of their quotes that they were engaged in debates with Calvinists and were seeking to refute Calvinism. However, it was actually the Gnostic’s that they were debating. It was Gnosticism which they were refuting. It should cause no small concern for those who hold to the doctrine of inability that there is no support from the Early Church for their doctrine, but they actually only have the Gnostic who agree with them. At the very least, this should make them reconsider their doctrine.

Reviving an Old Truth &

Confronting an Ancient Error


It is my aim to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jud. 1:3). It is my hope that this book will help return the Church, or at least a remnant in it, to the doctrines of Early Christianity on this point. The objective of this article is to confront and correct the Gnostic errors which have crept into the Church and to revive a very old Scriptural doctrine which was held universally by early Christianity in the days of its prime, but which has been largely forgotten overall by the Church ever since.

If all of the Early Christians believed in free will, we have to ask: what went wrong? When did this change and who changed it? The Apostle Paul said, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Rom. 16:17). If the Church was so perfectly united for hundreds of years on this doctrine, when did the division occur and who brought it? Who lead the Church in its departure from Early Christianity? These are very important questions that few consider; yet, the answer is obvious enough in history.

It was not until the fourth century that Gnostic and Manichaean influence started to infiltrate the Christian Church, polluting it with their doctrines. Augustine, after saturating himself in Gnostic philosophy for many years, joined the Church and became a Bishop. He then began to contradict what the Church had always taught on human nature and the freedom of man’s will and taught in accordance with the Gnostic views of human nature and free will. The Church, through the influence of Augustine, began to embrace and teach the doctrine of natural inability.

It is an undisputed and known fact of history, admitted by Augustine’s admirers and supporters in their historical accounts of his life, that Augustine was influenced by, and a member of, the Manichaean Gnostic sect. John K. Ryan, in his introduction to “The Confessions of Saint Augustine” said, “The two great intellectual influences upon Augustine prior to his conversion were Manicheism and Greek Philosophy.”42 In their introduction to “The Confessions of Augustine,” John Gibb and William Montgomery said, “In the same year in which he read the Scriptures and was disappointed in them, Augustine joined the Manichaean sect…”43 They also said, “For nearly nine years Augustine was a Manichaean Auditor. At first he was a zealous partisan who contended publicly for his new faith, and did not hesitate to ridicule the doctrines of the Church and especially the Old Testament Scriptures…”44

Remember that Manes, also known as Mani, was the founder of Manichaeism. That was the same man who Archelaus of the Early Church debated against on the topic of free will and inability. Augustine had been in Manichaeism for many years and studied the writings of Manes. Surprisingly, when Augustine first joined the Christian Church, he began teaching the freedom of the will when debating against the Manichaeans. He said, “We [Christians]…assert the liberty of the will, whereby our actions are rendered either moral or immoral, and keep it free from every bond of necessity, on account of the righteous judgment of God.”45 He also said, “The religious mind… confesses… and maintains… that we do by our free will whatsoever we know and feel to be done by us only because we will it.”46 And he said, “we sin voluntarily and not by necessity.”47 But after refuting the Manichaeans and defending free will, when he was debating the Pelagians, Augustine unfortunately went back to the doctrine of total inability, as the Manichaeans had taught. Beausobre also noticed this change and noted that Augustine defended free will “so long as he had to do with the Manichaeans. But when he came to dispute with the Pelagians, he changed his system. Then he denied that kind of freedom which before he had defended; and, so far as I am able to judge, his sentiments no longer differed from theirs [the Manichaeans] concerning the servitude of the will. He ascribed the servitude to the corruption which original sin brought into our nature; whereas the Manichaeans ascribed it to an evil quality, eternally inherit in matter.”48 When Augustine forsook his position on free will, saying “I have tried hard to maintain the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God prevailed,”49 he began to influence the rest of the Church with the idea of natural inability, which view the Church did not previously believe at all. The doctrine of free will was soon replaced with the idea of a ruined, corrupt, sinful nature.

Regarding the doctrine of a sinful nature, Charles Finney said, “This doctrine is a stumbling-block both to the church and the world, infinitely dishonorable to God, and an abomination alike to God and the human intellect, and should be banished from every pulpit, and from every formula of doctrine, and from the world. It is a relic of heathen philosophy, and was foisted in among the doctrines of Christianity by Augustine, as everyone may know who will take the trouble to examine for himself.”50

Harry Conn said, “Augustine, after studying the philosophy of Manes, the Persian philosopher, brought into the church from Manichaeism the doctrine of original sin.”51

The corruption of our nature, or the loss of our free will, Augustine credited to the original sin of Adam. Augustine said that the “free choice of the will was present in that man who was the first to be formed… But after he sinned by that free will, we who have descended from his progeny have been plunged into necessity.”52 “By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”53 “By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.” And finally he said, “by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”54

Julian of Eclanum properly stated Augustine’s position when he said, “…by the sin of the first man, that is, of Adam, free will perished: and that no one has now the power of living well, but that all are constrained into sin by the necessity of their flesh…”55 In this teaching, that free will was lost and that men sin by necessity as opposed to abusing their liberty, Rev. Daniel R. Jennings said that Julian “sensed a carryover of Manichaean thought from Augustine into the Christian Church…”56 This is why Julian referred to the Augustinians as “Those Manichaeans…”57 George Pretyman said about Augustine, “He was in the early part of his life a Manichaean” but “some remains of it seem to have been still left upon his mind…”58

By teaching that free will was lost and sin is the result of a defect in our nature, or the necessity of our corrupted constitution, Augustine was infiltrating the Church with Gnostic concepts and doctrines. Sin was no longer viewed as an ethical problem or a problem with how men use the faculty of their will. Rather, the problem of sin was now viewed as a metaphysical problem or as a fault in the faculty of the will itself.

Those who stood against the error of Augustinian Gnosticism, who accused Augustine of teaching Manichaeism and held unto the old ways and truths of early Christianity, were soon persecuted and condemned as heretics once Augustinianism was given civil and Church authority. The many bishops in the Church who denied that the original sin of Adam so corrupted human nature that free will was lost continued to teach that men were sinners by choice and not by constitution. As a result, they were ripped out of their pulpits, had their possessions confiscated, and were excommunicated by both state and church. The doctrine of free will that the Early Church taught was soon replaced with the Gnostic teaching of a necessitated will because of a corrupted, ruined, sinful nature. Augustinian theology was a massive departure from Early Christianity. Like Calvinism after it, Augustinianism used political and governmental force to silence any voice of opposition so that its doctrines could spread like a plague without challenge. Gnostic views, on this point, successfully crept into the Church.

There are major similarities and yet subtle differences between Augustinianism and Gnosticism. While the Gnostics said that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man didn’t have a free will because man was created by an inferior god, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics that man’s nature was sinful and corrupt and that man did not have a free will, but he said that God made it that way on account of Adam’s sin. While the Gnostics said that flesh was sinful and therefore Christ did not have a flesh, Augustine said that concupiscence in the flesh was sinful and that this sin was hereditary or transmitted from parent to child through the physical passions of intercourse, but that Jesus avoided this hereditary sin by being conceived without physical passion and being born of a virgin. Therefore, Augustine agreed with the Gnostics in principle, but he differed from them in explanation. In this way, Augustinian theology was a modified Manichaeism or a semi-Gnosticism.

Consider the following facts:

  • All of the Early Christians, before Augustine, believed in man’s free will and denied man’s natural inability.
  • The Gnostics in the days of the Early Church believed in man’s natural inability and denied man’s free will.
  • Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect, and converted to the Church out of Gnosticism.
  • After joining the Church and being appointed a Bishop, Augustine began to deny the free will of man and to affirm the natural inability of man
  • The Church, under Augustine’s influence, began to believe in the natural inability of man, which it never before held to, but which it formerly would refute.
What can we conclude by these facts except that when Augustine converted to Christianity out of Gnosticism, he brought with him some Gnostic doctrine? His views on human nature and free will were never held by the Early Church, but were held by the Gnostics. How can we possibly account for the fact that all of Christianity held to the freedom of the human will while only the Gnostic’s taught a corrupted and sinful nature, until Augustine joined the Christian Church out of Gnosticism? It seems abundantly clear that Augustine departed from the theology of the Early Church and remained in agreement with the Gnostics on the issue of human nature and free will. Church doctrine and theology has been infiltrated and polluted with Gnostic heresies. The Church went wrong at the time of Augustine. Christian theology violently crashed like a train, falling off the tracks, and has continued to charge and move forward on the wrong path and in the wrong direction ever since.

The greatest contributors to modern Christian theology have been Augustine, Luther, and Calvin. Augustine was influenced by Manichaean thought and Luther and Calvin were influenced by Augustinian thought. Therefore, it is no surprise that Augustine denied free will as the Manichaeans did, and Luther and Calvin denied free will as Augustine did. The Manichaeans influenced Augustine and Augustine in turn influenced Luther and Calvin.

There is no dispute over the fact that Luther and Calvin were influenced by Augustine. Luther was even an Augustinian monk. William Carlos Martyn said about Luther, “The study of the Bible and of Augustine theology… lead him to the Redeemer.”59 In his historical account of Luther, Johann Heinrich Kurtz said, “Luther zealously studied the Bible, along with the writings of Augustine…”60 Principal Tullock said that Luther “nourished himself upon Scripture and St. Augustine…”61 Robert Dale Owen said, “Calvin’s ‘Institutes’ are based on Augustine’s ‘City of God’”62 Thomas H. Dyer said in his biography of John Calvin, “The doctrine of predestination, which is generally regarded as that of which principally characterizes Calvin, is in fact that of St. Augustin…”63 Oliver Joseph Thatcher explains why, “In theology he [Calvin] was a close follower of St. Augustine. His influence was to revivify the ideas of St. Augustine and, joining them to the main ideas of the Reformation, embody them in the Church he organized.”64 The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics said, “Luther… Zwingli and Calvin, with minor divergences, agree in reverting to St. Augustine on the main issuesand in the supposed interests of evangelical piety…”65 Luther referred to Augustine thirteen times in his book “The Bondage of the Will”66, and twenty four times in the “Works of Martin Luther.”67 John Calvin referred to Augustine two hundred and sixty five times in his “Institutes on Christian Religion.”68

Since Luther and Calvin were both students of Augustine and learned much of their theology from him, it is not surprising to find the remains of the Gnostic view of human nature in their theological writings. Martin Luther said, “…man has lost his freedom, and is forced to serve sin, and cannot will good… he sins and wills evil necessarily…”69 He said, “Sin in his nature and of himself he can do nothing but sin.”70 John Calvin said that man does not have a “free will” in the sense that “he has a free choice of good and evil,”71 but denied this all together. Calvin paraphrases Augustine saying, “…nature began to want liberty the moment the will was vanquished by the revolt into which it fell… by making a bad use of free will, lost both himself and his will… free will having been made a captive, can do nothing in the way of righteousness… man at his creation received a great degree of free will, but lost it by sinning.”72 The Christian Spectator said, “Augustine, and Calvin, and all of the reformers, taught the bondage, or moral impotence of the will.”73 While the Early Church wrote about “the freedom of the will,” Martin Luther wrote an entire book called “The Bondage of the Will.” This shows a clear departure from the views of early Christianity

See this thread below

 
So about this question does MAN have a sinful nature, upon birth. I've read the arguments from many good posters here. I still tend to lean that man does, but sinful nature to what degree is another matter. I do not believe in TD in any such way that a Calvinist does but I do believe mankind's nature has been degenerated. What leads me to lean towards a position that MAN does is for what I read in Eph 2:3 and 2 Peter 1:4 and Eze 36:26 and things to do with the beginning with Adam/Eve in the garden.
Sinful Nature: A Greek Paradigm


by

Mark Uraine

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Romans 7:18 (NIV)
Sinful nature – If it’s in the Bible, it must be true, right? Unfortunately, “sinful nature” is not what it means in Greek. You might also be surprised to learn that “sinful nature” is a Greek-rooted paradigm of the Hebrew yetzer hara.


The word in Greek is actually sarx which means “flesh.” It’s quite simply the flesh that covers a body. It can pertain to animals and humans alike. Now the flesh is used in a number of ways to denote a particular limitation of man. It’s almost as if the flesh restricts our ability to properly commune with God. But there’s a lot more going on here when the translators change “flesh” to “sinful nature.”

For a great many years, there has been an ongoing debate over the translation of the Greek word sarx as “sinful nature.” However, sinful nature is a theological concept, not a linguistic one. How it is interpreted is a matter of theological paradigm, not a matter of linguistic transmission. There is a world of difference between sarx as “flesh” and sarx as “sinful nature.” Only one of these options entails a lengthy ecclesiastical history of pre-existent blame and guilt.


So how did we get here? Where did this concept of sinful nature come from? It’s a long road of Greek philosophy and Platonism, but it did originate from a Hebrew concept called the yetzer hara. Jewish theology submits that man is born with the yetzer hara and the yetzer hatov – two possible opposing forces within himself. The yetzer hara is quite literally the “inclination toward evil” and the yetzer hatov is, you guessed it, the “inclination toward good.” To the Greek-minded individual, this makes all the sense in the world. An inclination toward evil is obviously one’s sinful nature. However, we need to realize this is Jewish theology, not Greek. How do the Jews understand this?

I like to refer to Ira Stone’s commentary on the Mesillat Yesharim (The Path of the Upright) for insight into how these play out in man’s life.

I would suggest that the yetzer ha-ra cannot be understood simply as evil in the conventional sense, based on the Rabbis’ assertion that “human beings were created with both a yetzer ha-ra and a yetzer ha-tov, and were it not for the yetzer ha-ra no man would marry, earn a living or build a house, and were it not for Torah the yetzer ha-ra would triumph over the yetzer-ha-tov in all cases.” Since the yetzer ha-ra is essential for normative human activity, i.e., those activities necessary to assure our survival in the world, we understand it to mean the material urge that compels us to survive in the world and to bend the forces of material nature to our will; it is the inclination to work for the self. Conversely, the yetzer ha-tov represents the equally innate inclination to please or to serve another. Thus, in every instance human beings are presented with a choice between the self (yetzer ha-ra) and the other (yetzer ha-tov).

Ira Stone, Mesillat Yesharim, Introduction, p xviii
I can’t say it any better, but maybe I can condense it down a bit. The yetzer ha-ra, which the Greek paradigm of modern Christianity has misconstrued as sinful nature, is actually our passion to survive in the world. It is primarily aimed at our own survival. Without holding this passion in check, which is why we have the Torah, our passion for eating may turn into gluttony. Our passion for intimacy may turn to adultery. The list can go on.

The two can, and should, live in harmony. We are not called to eradicate the yetzer hara from our lives, but rather to overcome it. When God approached Cain before Cain killed Able, God told him that the yetzer hara is crouching like a beast at the door, ready to consume him. And Cain must overcome it. This is the same for us today, and the Torah is the means by which we can overcome it.

Guess it is all about Bible translations brother-



Here is the NIV.

We are delighted to hear that the New International Version of the Bible has made a key change in its 2011 update which has recently been released (in electronic form only at this point). The Greek word sarx is now rendered "flesh" rather than "sinful nature".
 
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Well in Heaven where its not a material world like we have here?
God is Spirit. Jesus is still man. His body didn't change after the ascension. Jesus isn't spirit, He still has a body of flesh and bones... That was a part of the cost of our redemption. The sacrifice was real and eternal.
Souls can cry out and be heard by God.
KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Metaphor right? Just like your souls under the altar. Innocent lives demand justice.
And, while you're at it?
Prove by using Scripture that you are alive.
I have a body. (I can punch my phone with my index finger to write this.)
I have the holy Spirit. Numerous promises there are in scripture showing that those who believe to be given the gift of the holy Spirit. I don't need to quote them as I'm sure you are familiar with them. I can also breathe which gives me life, as per Genesis, which makes me a living soul.
 
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God is Spirit. Jesus is still man. His body didn't change after the ascension. Jesus isn't spirit, He still has a body of flesh and bones... That was a part of the cost of our redemption. The device was real and eternal.

KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Metaphor right? Just like your should under the altar. Innocent lives demand justice.

I have a body. (I can punch my phone with my index finger to write this.)
I have the holy Spirit. Numerous promises there are in scripture showing that those who believe to be given the gift of the holy Spirit. I don't need to quote them as I'm sure you are familiar with them. I can also breathe which gives me life, as per Genesis, which makes me a living soul.
Ditto
 
What is an example of a sinful nature?

''Hatred'' (Gk echthra), i.e., intense, hostile intentions and acts; extreme dislike or enmity.

“Discord'' (Gk eris) quarreling, antagonism; a struggle for superiority (Rom 1:29; 1 Cor 1:11;3:3 )

''Jealousy'' (Gk zelos), i.e., resentfulness, envy of another's success (Rom 13:13; 1Cor 3:3)



My gosh! I just realized that some I needed to put on Ignore have a sin nature!


grace and peace ....................

God is Spirit. Jesus is still man. His body didn't change after the ascension. Jesus isn't spirit, He still has a body of flesh and bones... That was a part of the cost of our redemption. The device was real and eternal.

KJV Genesis 4:10
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Metaphor right? Just like your should under the altar. Innocent lives demand justice.

I have a body. (I can punch my phone with my index finger to write this.)
I have the holy Spirit. Numerous promises there are in scripture showing that those who believe to be given the gift of the holy Spirit. I don't need to quote them as I'm sure you are familiar with them. I can also breathe which gives me life, as per Genesis, which makes me a living soul.
His Body did change after the ascension.

12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,13and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man,f dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest.14The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire.15His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.16He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.
 
The Hebrew is in the plural. It was the breath of "lives."
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/39568/why-does-genesis-27-read-חַיִּ֑ים-plural-rather-than-singular

You're smart. You did not know that?
I didn't know that. Learn something every day huh. Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is also plural, presumably as a descriptive of the fullness of the Godhead. But I'm not a student of languages. Too old for that now. My guess however is that 'lives' is of a similar nature. Fullness of life. Maybe you know of examples elsewhere in scripture to confirm that? Or not.
 
His Body did change after the ascension.

12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,13and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man,f dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest.14The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire.15His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.16He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.
Are you saying Jesus no longer has the same body the disciples saw and touched that still contain the marks from His crucifixion?
 
I didn't know that. Learn something every day huh. Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is also plural, presumably as a descriptive of the fullness of the Godhead. But I'm not a student of languages. Too old for that now. My guess however is that 'lives' is of a similar nature. Fullness of life. Maybe you know of examples elsewhere in scripture to confirm that? Or not.
He is not a biblical linguist. They can read and translate the Hebrew/ Greek into their native language without aids. :)
 
Are you saying Jesus no longer has the same body the disciples saw and touched that still contain the marks from His crucifixion?
He is not a biblical linguist. They can read and translate the Hebrew/ Greek into their native language without aids
many plurals in the Hebrew text- "-iym"

 
Are you saying Jesus no longer has the same body the disciples saw and touched that still contain the marks from His crucifixion?
Let scripture inform us so that we can see the whole picture and then please share your thoughts on these scriptures.

We both know that before the Body was prepared for the Word to become Jesus that He was with and is Elohim = Spirit.

John 4:24 - "God is Spirit"

John 17:5 - "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

We are shown a brief view of this "Glory" that JESUS had, as the WORD, before HE came to earth = Matthew 17:1-8

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

It is therefore FITTING that God shows us this again in the very opening of Revelation = chapter 1

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.


Conclusion:
a.) The WORD that was/is God, had a earthly Body prepared for HIM, which was temporary = Hebrews 10:5-7
b.) That Body died on the Cross AND the same Body was resurrected as Eternal Evidence of God's Victory over Death for us.
c.) JESUS prayed to Return to His former GLORY and His Prayer came to pass = Revelation chapter 1
d.) JESUS is able to transform HIS Body BACK and FORTH from physical to GLORIFIED as HE is the Creator of ALL things - Matt 17:1-8
As such HE was able to walk thru walls and/or be interdimensional appearing at anytime and any place.= John chapters 20 & 21
e.) Finally, JESUS the WORD is not confined to His earthly Body = Revelation chapters 1, 19, 21

John 20:19
Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.
When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
 
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