An Article on free will

[Eternally-Grateful]

There you go again taking Paul's verses about works of the Law and incorrectly saying that all works should be trashed. Not all works are works of the Law.

There you go again falsly accuysing

eph 2 is not about works of the law

TTitus 3 is not about works of the law

Romans 4 is not about works of the law (there was no law when Abraham BELIEVED and God saved him

I already gave you Rom 2:7 where Paul does associate good works with eternal life. So there's no excuse to falsely depict Paul as despising all types of work.

romans 2 is descriptive not prescriptive

those who have eternal life. DO the works of God.

Paul did not contradict himself and then 2 chapters later turn 180 degrees..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you no longer have a sin nature? If so, then why do you, as we all know that you do, still sin?

My sin nature was crucified, it no longer has power over me.

Adam did not have a sin nature until he died. Christ never had one

 

[Jim]

Yet the bible says I was predestined, God knew me.

No, the bible says God foreknew you. He then predestined you. The difference is important.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Tell us, please, how you did. What were the circumstances that made you finally realize you believed ... AT LAST?

where do I start?

My sunday school teachers
My parents
My pastor
God himself. drawing me to himself. I actually prayed nightly for weeks for God to save me But I did not yet understand what that meant. Until someone sat down with me and took me through the word and put it together.

But God drew me, i did not draw myself

Was it sudden or did the realization come upon you slowly?

I already stated this,

Did you perhaps have a vision or a dream?
Could it have been by hearing someone either by radio or TV and it clicked?
Was it perhaps some clergy?

Were you immediately aware that it was God who was making things happen and change in you?

You say "I did not come to faith on my own." and I truly want to know how you came to this life altering knowledge.

Yawn

Your trying to reach.. red flags are flying high..

I agree 100% with this. No matter how one gets their faith in Jesus, without it they are doomed.

It is the work of God we believe.

God draws, God teaches, God helps us to understand, God must show himself trustworthy. You will not trust someone out of the blue, without something to show you they are trustworthy.

 

[Jim]

My sin nature was crucified, it no longer has power over me.

Adam did not have a sin nature until he died. Christ never had one

And you did not have a "sin nature" until you sinned. God formed your spirit in you. He did not form a dead spirit. No one has a dead spirit until he sins.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Paul keeps fighting even after being saved. See below. So you're telling me that you know better than Paul?

Yes. Because the old man was crucified, but it was still there.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You are trying to deflect and draw out somethign nbot their also

One more time. let go of your isms, Liten to ME. not what you have been told I believe

otherwise, you will keep talking around me, and never understand a word I am saying. and keep making posts like this that prove thats what you are doing

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're once again projecting your faults to others.

No. I am trying to show you yours.

see what we are seeing here.

You think your right and everyone else is wrong.

Like I said, Your pride is deep. stop being like the Pharisee, and become like the tax collector.

I do not profess I have all the answers.. no one should

 

[civic]

Well then, that must mean that absolutely everyone has been saved. If the one being saved has no part in salvation, then all must be saved.

Receiving Him, believing in His name, is our part.

That is not what John 1:10-13 says. It says that God gave you the power to become a child of God because you received Him, because you believed in Him.

The entire early church were synergists in salvation.

 

[Jim]

Romans 4 is not about works of the law (there was no law when Abraham BELIEVED and God saved him

Of course there was law when Abraham believed.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Also. Was Adam's free will removed from future men?

WHAT????

where does this stuff come from?

Free will is still there. You can still chose to not cheat on your wife.. You just can not love her like God loved you.

we love because God first loved us..

If he had it, and those who argue against it, was this a mistake God corrected for future generations?

I have no idea what your even asking.

I am sorry but I have forgotten if you are pro free will or totally against? Your commentaries seem to lean in both directions.

Because your tryign to make it a calvin vs arminian thing

LISTEN TO ME,, get off your isms.

I am just a silly old woman and as such claim the right to ask what may seem like silly questions because I have never stopped
the longing to learn about every thing God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

the first thing all of us need to do (i had to years ago and still struggle ) is let go of our preconceived ideas. Stop looking for key words (he is a calvinist because he thinks this, he is a monergist or he is a synergist. he is arminian.)

and listen to what the other person is saying;

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course there was law when Abraham believed.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

the mosaic law was not given until Moses was given it. It did not exist when abraham believed in Gen 15

 

[Jim]

the mosaic law was not given until Moses was given it. It did not exist when abraham believed in Gen 15

Yeah, So?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The entire early church were synergists in salvation.

were they?

Faith earns salvation?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yeah, So?

??

besides the fact that it shows we can not use "works of the law" as context in romans 4. I am not sure what you mean

 

[civic]

were they?

Faith earns salvation?

No synergistic as in Gods grace precedes man’s decision to place their faith in the gospel. God draws and man responds. I have plenty of verses where Jesus illustrates this is how one is saved/ healed if you want me to post them for you.

 

[MTMattie]

where do I start?

My sunday school teachers
My parents
My pastor
God himself. drawing me to himself. I actually prayed nightly for weeks for God to save me But I did not yet understand what that meant. Until someone sat down with me and took me through the word and put it together.

But God drew me, i did not draw myself

I already stated this,

Yawn

Your trying to reach.. red flags are flying high..

It is the work of God we believe.

God draws, God teaches, God helps us to understand, God must show himself trustworthy. You will not trust someone out of the blue, without something to show you they are trustworthy.

Thank you,

One last

WHAT????

where does this stuff come from?

Free will is still there. You can still chose to not cheat on your wife.. You just can not love her like God loved you.

we love because God first loved us..

I have no idea what your even asking.

Because your tryign to make it a calvin vs arminian thing

LISTEN TO ME,, get off your isms.



the first thing all of us need to do (i had to years ago and still struggle ) is let go of our preconceived ideas. Stop looking for key words (he is a calvinist because he thinks this, he is a monergist or he is a synergist. he is arminian.)

and listen to what the other person is saying;

I thank you for sharing in both of your replies.

It is ironic though....

You said this above...

"where do I start?

My sunday school teachers
My parents
My pastor
God himself. drawing me to himself. I actually prayed nightly for weeks for God to save me But I did not yet understand what that meant. Until someone sat down with me and took me through the word and put it together.

But God drew me, i did not draw myself"

Other then your final 2 comments here this could be me.

I, personally, have never felt God drawing me. I kind of was raised with the idea that God offers. (NO I cannot explain that) I also spent about 2 decade asking for forgiveness and to be saved which was not fruitful because I was well into erroneously praying the sinners prayer at every opportune moment and not understanding why I never once received those feeling that others giving testimony did. That is beside the point.

I knew, because of family and church teachings that I never wanted to go to hell that I only wanted to go to heaven and be with Jesus... I was in my late 30s when something happened that I turned to God and asked for help and made Him a promise.

As undeserved as I was God heard my pleas and did what I asked and it was at that point in my life I knew I needed to shape up or ship out.

But was that God who made me do that or was it because I was too fearful of breaking a promise to Him? Because I was .

 

[Jim]

??

besides the fact that it shows we can not use "works of the law" as context in romans 4. I am not sure what you mean

There is always law, just not always the law of Moses. But there is always law "written on the hearts" of mankind. Therefore, there are always works of law. Abraham was not free from that.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thank you,

One last

I thank you for sharing in both of your replies.

It is ironic though....

You said this above...

"where do I start?

My sunday school teachers
My parents
My pastor
God himself. drawing me to himself. I actually prayed nightly for weeks for God to save me But I did not yet understand what that meant. Until someone sat down with me and took me through the word and put it together.

But God drew me, i did not draw myself"

Other then your final 2 comments here this could be me.

just so I inderstand

you think you drew yourself to God?

I, personally, have never felt God drawing me. I kind of was raised with the idea that God offers. (NO I cannot explain that) I also spent about 2 decade asking for forgiveness and to be saved which was not fruitful because I was well into erroneously praying the sinners prayer at every opportune moment and not understanding why I never once received those feeling that others giving testimony did. That is beside the point.

could it have been God Nudging you. or the HS trying to convict you. is that why you said the sinners prayer?

I knew, because of family and church teachings that I never wanted to go to hell that I only wanted to go to heaven and be with Jesus... I was in my late 30s when something happened that I turned to God and asked for help and made Him a promise.

without all the stuff that happened before. if you never even heard of God. do you think that event would have had the same effect?

As undeserved as I was God heard my pleas and did what I asked and it was at that point in my life I knew I needed to shape up or ship out.

But was that God who made me do that or was it because I was too fearful of breaking a promise to Him? Because I was .

I never said God made you do anything. Just like adam, You had to make a choice.

the choice is

do you trust God (belief)

or do you not trust God (unbelief)

I think Jesus explained it well in John 3.. WHY did the people chose to trust God and look to the serpent and live? Did they create their own faith. did they radomly of their own power just decide to trust someone they did not know

or did God through his work. draw them to himself..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is always law, just not always the law of Moses. But there is always law "written on the hearts" of mankind. Therefore, there are always works of law. Abraham was not free from that.

the argument was that Abraham was not saved by works of the law..Not just any work period.

lets try to stick to the disussion.. we may not be confused.

romans 4: What then shall we say that Abraham our fathe has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

the argument is these works in context are works of the law. Not just any work. so it does not contradict James, who said abraham was Justified by works.
But works of the law can not be understood here. because the law was not yet given.
What works are in context here?
Everything Abraham did after he believed..
also please note. Paul also says we are saved by this same faith
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

This is the kind of faith that saves. Abraham was fully convinced. Are we fully convinced of Gods promise concerning salvation?


23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Again, it can't be works of the law that was in context.. so it can not be works of the law in context today.

mixing grace and works concerning salvation is like mixing oil and water. they do not mix.. its one or the other

 

[MTMattie]

just so I inderstand

you think you drew yourself to God?

I believe with all my heart that with family, and even some young friends sharing their church experiences and my church that
when I took my confirmation classes and became a member in the church I knew without shadow of a doubt about Jesus and what He had done on the cross for our sins . I had had to be in a church service with others from the class and we swore to what our beliefs were.

I will not say I drew myself to God. Anymore then I felt God was drawing me to Him.

It was that I wanted to be part of the church because at the time I actually felt that was a safety net. (I was about 12) (And I had heard of hell fire and damnation preaching's from other family... and I knew, based on their teachings on Jesus this was right.

could it have been God Nudging you. or the HS trying to convict you. is that why you said the sinners prayer?

That came about with too much televangelist types from the 700 Club to the stand alone televangelists and even Billy Graham
to attending a revival and then my mom and I in my early 20s started to attend a monthly Christian Woman's Club luncheon where there were the obligatory testimonies followed but a group sinners prayer.

without all the stuff that happened before. if you never even heard of God. do you think that event would have had the same effect?

For me that would have been an impossibility for from the moment I could understand anything bedtime prayers were done. (Still are) so I cannot answer your question.

I never said God made you do anything. Just like adam, You had to make a choice.

the choice is

do you trust God (belief)

or do you not trust God (unbelief)

Which I did and do believe. My faith is strong.

I think Jesus explained it well in John 3.. WHY did the people chose to trust God and look to the serpent and live? Did they create their own faith. did they radomly of their own power just decide to trust someone they did not know

or did God through his work. draw them to himself..

That is not a simple question to answer. I could say possibly all of the above.

You ask " did they randomly of their own power just decide to trust someone they did not know"

Is that not how all the cultish religions who have worshipped those golden calves came to do so?

For myself, as a child, I trusted God before learning a thing about Him and Jesus because it was important in the family.

But there are beliefs all over the place, even here, and that is why I started to ask questions.

Thank you for answering.

You answers, to me, make a certain amount of sense. Why? Because you accept free will unlike others .

Thank you again.

Be blessed.