All men
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Active Member
So now that it’s been established both A/C are in agreement everyone , all people should be prayed for. Here is where the Calvinist reveals their bias and inconsistency in the passage in the OP. The Calvinist must be dishonest with the text to support their doctrines. The non Calvinist remains consistent and true to the text.
Notice the exact same all people below.
1- God wants all people , everyone to be saved
2- Jesus gave Himself for all people , everyone as a ransom.
3;This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4;who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
Notice the exact same all people below.
1- God wants all people , everyone to be saved
2- Jesus gave Himself for all people , everyone as a ransom.
3;This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4;who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
brightfame52
Active Member
So who's responsibility is it to save everyone that God wants to be saved?
civic
Active Member
God can’t save those who don’t want to be saved. He forces no one which is why Monergism is false along with the I in tulip.
brightfame52
Active Member
I asked who is responsible to save those who God wants to be saved? For instance Luke 19:10 says what?
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
civic
Active Member
God is the Savior of those who place their faith in Christ
brightfame52
Active Member
Did Christ come to do the father's will of saving sinners he wants to be saved?
civic
Active Member
He is the Savior of the world , all people , everyone. The propitiation for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2
No faith , no salvation
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Why do you pray for all men?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Seems rather obvious. The most glaring hypocrisy is found in the prayer. It is no more than an empty prayer for a Calvinist. Honest Calvinists often admit this. It is their paradoxical position. Few of them will actually admit it.
civic
Active Member
Ditto
brightfame52
Active Member
Its Jesus responsibility to save all God wants to be saved and come to the Truth. Jn 6 37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
atpollard
Active Member
Therein lies the Arminian paradox …
“God saved EVERYONE!”
“… But He didn’t save ‘everyone’.”
civic
Active Member
Because man has a choice to believe or reject the gospel.
God does not make anyone believe , that’s man’s decision to believe.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It isn't a paradox at all. We know the answers from Scriptures. Being saved isn't just about forgiveness. In fact, it much much more than just forgiveness. It is much more about relationship. Forgiveness is just a part of a relationship.
God is too smart to be as dumb as your theology presents Him
And there we have the dichotomy of the absolute attributes of the all-powerful God. His holiness and His mercy stand in perfect opposition. How is it possible for God in His holiness t forego the punishment required for man's sins and at the same time be merciful to forgive the sins of man and allow him into His very presence? That God in His wisdom has established the perfect plan for that is the very essence of the gospel. Don't fight it. Believe it even if you cannot understand it.
atpollard
Active Member
Then is God really the SAVIOR “of the world , all people , everyone”? Certainly, God did not actually SAVE “world , all people , everyone” (UNIVERSALISM).
Is God really “The propitiation for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2” … since “man has a choice to believe or reject the gospel. God does not make anyone believe , that’s man’s decision to believe.”? After all, only those who believe have been truly “propitiated” (reconciled with God).
atpollard
Active Member
Technically, all of salvation is a gift from God and not of ourselves [Ephesians 2:1-10] … that would include Faith/belief.
[Romans 12:3 ESV] “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”
civic
Active Member
He saves those who believe the gospel. All men can be saved but not all men will make that choice, decision to believe the gospel and remain in their sin.
Propitiation means atonement was made, it does not mean sins are forgiven until one believes the gospel. No one is forgiven their sins until they become a child of God.
civic
Active Member
No faith is not a gift- salvation which is the result of faith is the gift via grace.
Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8
1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace
conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.
Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.
And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below :
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.
I will quote @TibiasDad below on the words for salvation:
The words in question (σῴζω and σωτηρία) all deal with the concept of being saved, rescued, thus salvation. One who is saved has experienced salvation; thus the gift of being saved is nothing less than salvation.
Your argument ( @atpollard )is much ado about nothing, and only reveals the desperation of your objection.
Doug
