Why no answer to this question?
What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?
Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
All Claims of The Son's Deity
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What time relation did this bear to him becoming man?
Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
False.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Peterlag
Well-known member
“a god.” The Greek word Theos (#2316 θεός), God or god, does not have the definite article and should be translated “a god” or “divine.” The Jews would never believe a man could be Yahweh, “God,” but in Aramaic and Hebrew a man representing God could be referred to as a “god,” as we see here in this very dialogue (John 10:34-35)
Peterlag
Well-known member
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and is mentioned in John 1:1.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Your knowledge of Greek is not helping you because Jesus is not God. Nor is there a verse anywhere in the Bible that says Jesus is God. The only thing you have is your own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then you construct your "own God" which is the product of your own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles, or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why you cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.
So, per Peterlag, Jesus cannot be the logos or message of God to humanity. Jesus is just a bystander with no relevance. Peterlag, by taking a hyper-literalist view with blinders on, cannot understand the metaphor of Christ Jesus as the message of God's heart expressed through his Son. Jesus is not just a messenger but is also the message. Metaphoric use of words does not make those words suitable for lexicon entries. Maybe we need someone with a PhD to explain that to Peterlag.
You totally ignored the Greek words that the NT uses and went into a rage about what you imagine is at fault with the Bible. You totally ignore everytime the Word (Jesus) manifests himself or declares himself as God and then you rage against the Bible as not doing so. From the OT Theophanies to the many times John, Thomas, and even Jesus declared that Jesus is God, you totally ignore that and then rant that never happened. I don't know anymore what to make of your condition. Maybe somebody in the audience can help?
Peterlag
Well-known member
You did not give a verse about Greek. You gave a section of the chapter thinking I was going to try to figure out what was in your mind.
I said "Greek words", not "Greek verse". Do you know how to read English?
You continue to totally ignore the Greek words that the NT uses and continue to deny the OT Theophanies and the many times John, Thomas, and even Jesus declared that Jesus is God and then you rant that it never happened. I seriously don't know anymore what to make of your denials.
I gave the guy a chance to address issues. And he claims to be an expert on the Trinity doctrine but never seems to recognize the failings he has when trying to make an argument against the nature of Christ and the Father. He also denies the Jewish recognition of the Two Powers in Heaven by Segal that preceded the Christian era. All he has left is stark, unfounded denials.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The Jews would not have considered Jesus a threat, but insane...
if he had walked around saying he was God. All you folks ever put in front of me are bits and pieces of words and half verses that are scattered all over the Bible. Also there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught.
The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Greek words in what verse?
I have given up expecting scriptural details in support of Peterlag's opinion. We already saw that the High Priest (in Matt 26:63-66) tore his robes at what he perceived as Jesus' claim to being God. But what significance is that to someone who denies who Christ is?
Nothing in John 1 about the word being an impersonal thing.
Contrarywise as posted
There is no mention of wisdom anywhere in john 1:1-3
and john 1:18 refers to the incarnation
Before the incarnation we had one who existed in the form of God who could consider.
'
Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
His pre-existence is further shown
Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not
So you imagine everytime the article does not appear a god is meant
then you must offer the following
John 1:6A man came, sent from a god, whose name was John.
John 1:13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of a god.
John 9:33If this man were not from a god, he would not be able to do anything!”
John 16:30Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe that you have come from a god.”
there is a lot more but these are examples I took from the book of John
Excellent points! This exposes @Peterlag's bizarre ideas which are products of his total ignorance of the Greek language.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Dear @synergy,
@TomL never makes excellent points concerning the trinity. He does not even make good points. His knowledge of the customs of how the Bible was written and how to read and understand it are that of a child.
The majority of the times Elohim occurs in the Bible, it refers to the true God. However, even a brief glance through a Hebrew concordance will show that many times it refers to false gods. Dozens of verses could be cited as examples, but a few are: “You must not have any other gods [Elohim] besides me” (Exodus 20:3); “You must not bow down to their gods [Elohim]” (Exodus 23:24); “Israel chose new gods [Elohim]” (Judges 5:8); and, “[Solomon’s] wives turned away his heart after other gods [Elohim]” (1 Kings 11:4). There are times when Elohim is used to refer to a specific pagan god: for example, Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:7), Chemosh (Judges 11:24), and Baal (1 Kings 18:24-27).
Elohim, “God” can also refer to angels or other spirit beings. One example is Psalm 8:5, which says God made mankind a little lower than Elohim. Given the flexible meaning of Elohim, the verse could be saying that God made mankind a little lower than He Himself, or it could be saying that He made mankind a little lower than his representatives in the spirit world, i.e., angels. Thankfully, the interpretation is not in doubt because the verse is quoted in Hebrews 2:7, which says “angels” letting us know that in Psalm 8:5, Elohim refers to God’s representatives, the angels. Thus Psalm 8:5 is an excellent example of how the New Testament clarifies our understanding of the Old Testament. Another example is Judges 13:22, where Manoah and his wife saw an angel, but exclaimed, “We have seen God [Elohim].” Their statement made perfect sense in the biblical culture because they saw God’s representative.
There are times when God’s representatives are called “God” (Elohim and even Yahweh!) when they represent God and speak on His behalf. This is referred to as “agency.” The essence of the principle of agency is: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” The principle of agency is well-attested by scholars and occurs quite a few times in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 16:13, even though Hagar was speaking to an angel, she referred to him as Yahweh and El (God). In Genesis 31:11 an angel speaks to Jacob, but in Genesis 31:13 he says, “I am the God [El] of Bethel.” In Genesis 32:28, 30 it seems Jacob is wrestling with God [Elohim], but we learn from Hosea 12:3-4 that it was an angel representing God. Another example is that Exodus 13:21 says “Yahweh” went before Israel in the pillar of fire, but Exodus 14:19 and 23:20-23 let us know it was an angel, a representative of God. So “Yahweh” did go in front of Israel as represented by his angel protector. Similarly, if you read Judges 2:1-4, an angel speaks to the Israelites, but his speech is in the first person as if he were God Himself.
Elohim, “God” can also refer to human rulers, kings, prophets, and people who represent God in some way. Thus Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9, almost certainly refer to God’s representatives as Elohim, “God” (Exodus 22:28 likely does too. Psalm 82:1 is noteworthy because it uses Elohim twice; at the beginning of the verse to refer to the true God, and at the end of the verse to refer to rulers and people who represent Him. The verse says, “Elohim [God] takes his stand in his own assembly. He judges in the midst of the Elohim [gods].” Furthermore, Psalm 82:6 says “You are Elohim [gods], all of you are children of the Most High.” As sons of the Most High, these rulers are qualified to be called Elohim, [gods]. Psalm 97:7 also calls rulers Elohim.
There are times when specific individuals are called Elohim, “God.” One example is Moses. In Exodus 7:1, God is speaking to Moses and says, “See, I have made thee God [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (Darby). Given the uniplural nature of Elohim, another translation is, “See, I have made you a god [Elohim] to Pharaoh” (BBE, KJV), but the fact is that Moses, who represents Elohim (“God”) can legitimately be called Elohim (“God”) in the biblical culture. Another example is when King Saul wanted to speak to the dead prophet Samuel and went to a woman who was a medium and necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7-15). When she conjured up “Samuel” (actually a demon impersonating Samuel), the woman said, “I see Elohim coming up from the ground” (1 Samuel 28:13). This is a good example of a person being called Elohim, and we could translate it “God” and understand the custom of God’s representatives being called “God” or a more easily understood translation for the English reader is simply, “a god” the woman saw “a god” coming up who she thought was Samuel.
Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, for Thomas to also refer to Jesus as “god” is certainly understandable. In contrast, to assert that Thomas said that Jesus was “God” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. As was noted above, in biblical times it was common to call God’s representatives “God” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples, such as when Jacob wrestled with “God” and it's clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4).
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Peterlag
Well-known member
The word logos means the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and is mentioned in John 1:1.
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Sorry you cannot get that from John 1:1
Nothing in John 1 about the word being an impersonal thing.
Contrarywise as posted
There is no mention of wisdom anywhere in john 1:1-3
and john 1:18 refers to the incarnation
Before the incarnation we had one who existed in the form of God who could consider.
'
Philippians 2:5–8 (NASB95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
His pre-existence is further shown
Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not
Says the man who continually avoids responding to argument and text
example
So you imagine everytime the article does not appear a god is meant
then you must offer the following
John 1:6A man came, sent from a god, whose name was John.
John 1:13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of a god.
John 9:33If this man were not from a god, he would not be able to do anything!”
John 16:30Now we know that you know everything and do not need for anyone to ask you questions. By this we believe that you have come from a god.”
there is a lot more but these are examples I took from the book of John
