All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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civic
Well-known member
Same creation, same Creator, same beginning
Yep.
And new revelation -
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This quote of John 17:3 reminds me of the one-verse unitarianism. For the unitarianist, this verse overrules all passages that show the ambiguity of Jesus with pre-existence in divine form.
The odd thing is that biblical facts against the unitarian heresy are not persuasive to unitarians. John 17:5 has no persuasive effect against the Unitarian heresy. Jewish beliefs in the Two Powers of Heaven is not persuasive against the Unitarian heresy. Runningman tried to argue on passages that challenge the unitarian view. Other unitarianists just cut and paste with no effective arguments. I did look at passages they propose but these do not overcome the broad testimony of scripture nor resolve encounters of Yahweh interacting with Yahweh in the OT.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Really... no connection. One is the beginning of the creation. And the other is the beginning of Jesus Christ.
You are impossible
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Who is this child that is born ?
And how can a child (a human) born here on this Earth called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ?
What is Isiah prophesying about?
Where in Scripture is this prophecy fulfilled ?
Show me.
You ignored the greek text
Greek texts
John 1:3 (WH1881MR) — 3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
John 1:3 (Alford) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν.
John 1:3 (BYZ) — 3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
John 1:3 (CGT Txt) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν.
John 1:3 (The Greek New Testament, as Edited by Samuel Prideaux Tregelles) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (UBS4 Int.) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (SBLGNT) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (LDGNT) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (Scrivener 1881) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν, ὃ γέγονεν.
John 1:3 (Westcott-Hort) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν
John 1:3 (TR1550MR) — 3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν
αὐτοῦ is masculine singular
BTW I have close to a 100 English translations which say he not it
Again the issue concerned what he created
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And scripture shows it was everything that was created.
Unsurprisingly, you once again dodged the point.
This is a repetitive happenstance .
Peterlag
Well-known member
Nope... not dodging. There's no trinity thus, all things were not made by Jesus.
Peterlag
Well-known member
By the way, all 100 English translations are wrong because spirit is not a him. It's an it. The logos also is not a him. It's an it.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Nope not dodging at all. I just keep responding and you just keep saying I'm not.
Peterlag
Well-known member
You are impossible
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Who is this child that is born ?
And how can a child (a human) born here on this Earth called Mighty God and Everlasting Father ?
What is Isiah prophesying about?
Where in Scripture is this prophecy fulfilled ?
Show me.
Isaiah 9:6
“a child will be born.” The Hebrew text reads “a child has been born... a son has been given.” The Hebrew verb about being born is a perfect passive and is most literally translated “has been born.” Although some scholars say this prophecy is about Hezekiah, and in fact it may reflect upon him in part, the prophecy is more completely about the Messiah. It's common in the Hebrew idiom to write about something that will happen in the future as if it had happened in the past, and this is referred to by many scholars as the idiom of the “prophetic perfect.” Also, the prophetic perfect occurs very often in prophecy, especially in Isaiah.
“The Mighty God is an Extraordinary Advisor” The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor” in most English Bibles. However, a better way to understand it is as a theophoric name given to the Messiah which describes God, not the Messiah. It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.
“Mighty God/Warrior God” el gibbor is the same name attributed to Yahweh (the true God) subsequently in Isaiah 10:21, as well as in all the other biblical occurrences Deuteronomy 10:17; Jeremiah 32:18). So, in the other places where this same phrase is used in the singular, it's referring to Yahweh, not to anyone else. So, in every occurrence of el gibbor, it refers to God the Father—Yahweh. This provides strong evidence that el gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 likely also refers to Yahweh.
Although some Trinitarians attempt to see this text as teaching the Messiah’s Deity, many do not consider that the text taken consistently in their framework would actually be calling the child “The Everlasting Father.” That would then make Jesus the “Everlasting Father” which would be Modalism, where God is strictly a unitary being who exists at different times in different modes (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son). The Athanasian Creed, which is considered as orthodox today states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” but if Isaiah 9:6 says the Son is the Father, then it would be doing that and not teaching the modern definition of the Trinity.
