All Claims of The Son's Deity

[MTMattie]

View attachment 1785
Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation.” Scholars disagree on what this phrase means, but that is primarily because the doctrine of the Trinity obscures its simple meaning. Trinitarian doctrine states that Jesus is “eternal” but if that is true then he cannot be the firstborn “of all creation” because that would make him part of the creation. But the simple reading of Colossians 1:15 seems clear: Jesus is a created being. The BDAG Greek-English lexicon[entry under “creation”] explains the Greek word translated “creation” as “that which is created… of individual things or beings created, creature.” Not only was Jesus a created being, but he's also called the “firstborn” from the dead because he was the first one in God’s creation who was raised from the dead to everlasting life—a point that is also made in Colossians 1:18.

I fault the words of man for implying something that has no foundation other then the words of man.

If Jesus was the first born of all creation.... before Genesis.... that is a possibility except I want to know how?

I fault the Nicene Creed because they actually say ....
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.

That leads to the obvious question of Where is Mrs. God?.... Who is Mrs. God?... was His mother an angel? and so on.

One could go on and on because of how the wordings of the Creeds and yes, even the Bible make a mind to question at times/

Do I think there was a possibility that Jesus was created? Absolutely not because I do not think modeling clay was invented before time.

Do I think there was a possibility that Jesus was created? Absolutely not because I do not think the Jesus would have been made from dirt... Adam style as then when we read Jesus was the last Adam would have any relation to the First.

I am certain that you will never accept the Trinity. I truly am sorry you are incapable of seeing that fact.

I also am certain that you and others will post scriptures with commentaries that make no sense if one thinks because
you are incapable of seeing what others do..

 

[Peterlag]

Do that "see" means your interpretation?
Because what I see is misinterpretation of the verse. Why? Because the Father said to the Son and continually called the Son "God" in Heb 1:8-9.

Again, I don't see what you see. I often think it's funny that when folks quote Scripture on here it's the Word of God. When I quote Scripture it's my opinion or my interpretation. Here's the bottom line. Jesus is not God. Therefore Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to him as God. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[Peterlag]

There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. Such an important subject matter like the trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it.

And there's the spinning and twisting from the trinitarians who can't come up with one verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Trinitarians who can't come up with one verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Trinitarians who have to make up their own words that are not in the Bible. Words like trinity, deity, and incarnated.

If any of this nonsense was true and since it's so important and a huge subject to Christianity and is necessary for salvation like many teach. Then it would have been taught by someone somewhere. And it is not.

 

[MTMattie]

Again, I don't see what you see. I often think it's funny that when folks quote Scripture on here it's the Word of God. When I quote Scripture it's my opinion or my interpretation.

What possibly could you see that would not be what I, and others see.

Heb 1:8 NASB95 NOT KJ....

But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

This reads ......But of the Son He (God the Father) says, “YOUR (Jesus) THRONE, O GOD, (Jesus) IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS (Jesus') KINGDOM.

How can you possibly mess this up. What do you see that no one else sees?

 

[Peterlag]

What possibly could you see that would not be what I, and others see.

Heb 1:8 NASB95 NOT KJ....

But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

This reads ......But of the Son He (God the Father) says, “YOUR (Jesus) THRONE, O GOD, (Jesus) IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS (Jesus') KINGDOM.

How can you possibly mess this up. What do you see that no one else sees?

Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

 

[MTMattie]

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

This Septuagint?

About the Septuagint Bible w/ Apocrypha​

The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible and some related texts into Koine Greek. As the primary Greek translation of the Old Testament, it is also called the Greek Old Testament. This translation is quoted in the New Testament, particularly by Paul, and also by the Greek Church Fathers. The title and its Roman numeral acronym LXX refer to legendary seventy Jewish scholars who solely translated the Five Books Of Moses as early as the late 2nd century BC.



The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible and some related texts into Koine Greek. As the primary Greek translation of the Old Testament, it is also called the Greek Old Testament. This translation is quoted in the New Testament, particularly by Paul, and also by the Greek Church Fathers. The title and its Roman numeral acronym LXX refer to legendary seventy Jewish scholars who solely translated the Five Books Of Moses as early as the late 2nd century BC.

This English translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton, published in 1851, is considered a long-time standard. For most of the years since its publication it has been the only one readily available, and has continually been in print. It is based primarily upon the Codex Vaticanus and contains the Greek and English texts in parallel columns.

The Brenton translation of the Septuagint is in the public domain.

Find me Psalms listed here. (I found it below)(I copied it below)

Old Testament​

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
Kings I
Kings II
Kings III
Kings IV
Chronicles I
Chronicles II
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Esias
Jeremias
Lamentations
Jezekiel
Daniel
Osee
Joel
Amos
Obdias
Jonas
Michaeas
Naum
Ambacum
Sophonias
Aggaeus
Zacharias
Malachias
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremy
Prayer of Azarias
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
I Maccabees
II Maccabees
I Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
III Maccabees
IV Maccabees

Because I did find another link and you got your numbering all wrong...evidently

1 [For the end, for the sons of Core; a Psalm concerning secret things.] 2 God ... PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ45 - Bilingual Septuagint

www.ellopos.net

Here is a copy and paste, lest you say I copied wrong....

​ The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint)​ Septuagint Random Chapter / The New Testament​

​

In Print The Greek Old Testament​ PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ​ 45​ 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | 97 | 98 | 99 | 100 | 101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 | 107 | 108 | 109 | 110 | 111 | 112 | 113 | 114 | 115 | 116 | 117 | 118 | 119 | 120 | 121 | 122 | 123 | 124 | 125 | 126 | 127 | 128 | 129 | 130 | 131 | 132 | 133 | 134 | 135 | 136 | 137 | 138 | 139 | 140 | 141 | 142 | 143 | 144 | 145 | 146 | 147 | 148 | 149 | 150 | Search | Report a typo

​

[td]1 [For the end, for the sons of Core; a Psalm concerning secret things.] 2 God is our refuge and strength, a help in the afflictions that have come heavily upon us. 3 Therefore will we not fear when the earth is troubled, and the mountains are removed into the depths of the seas. 4 Their waters have roared and been troubled, the mountains have been troubled by his might. Pause. 5 The flowings of the river gladden the city of God: the Most High has sanctified his tabernacle. 6 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her with his countenance. 7 The nations were troubled, the kingdoms tottered: he uttered his voice, the earth shook. 8 The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our helper. Pause. 9 Come, and behold the works of the Lord, what wonders he has achieved on the earth. 10 Putting an end to wars as for the ends of the earth; he will crush the bow, and break in pieces the weapon, and burn the bucklers with fire. 11 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth. 12 The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our helper.[/td][td]
[/td]

« Previous PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ Next »
​

Honestly @Peterlag you are lousy with references to make your point always causeing someone to hunt to see if you are truthful.

I just want to pelt you with 45 cotton balls.... 1 for each Psalm leading to what you claim is not there

 

[Peterlag]

​

​ The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint)​ Septuagint Random Chapter / The New Testament​

​

​	​ In Print The Greek Old Testament​

​

Old Testament​

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
Kings I
Kings II
Kings III
Kings IV
Chronicles I
Chronicles II
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Esias
Jeremias
Lamentations
Jezekiel
Daniel
Osee
Joel
Amos
Obdias
Jonas
Michaeas
Naum
Ambacum
Sophonias
Aggaeus
Zacharias
Malachias
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremy
Prayer of Azarias
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
I Maccabees
II Maccabees
I Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
III Maccabees
IV Maccabees

Because I did find another link and you got your numbering all wrong...evidently

1 [For the end, for the sons of Core; a Psalm concerning secret things.] 2 God ... PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ45 - Bilingual Septuagint

www.ellopos.net

Here is a copy and paste, lest you say I copied wrong....

​

​ The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint)​ Septuagint Random Chapter / The New Testament​

​

​

​ In Print The Greek Old Testament​ PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ​ 45​ 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 | 88 | 89 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | 97 | 98 | 99 | 100 | 101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 | 107 | 108 | 109 | 110 | 111 | 112 | 113 | 114 | 115 | 116 | 117 | 118 | 119 | 120 | 121 | 122 | 123 | 124 | 125 | 126 | 127 | 128 | 129 | 130 | 131 | 132 | 133 | 134 | 135 | 136 | 137 | 138 | 139 | 140 | 141 | 142 | 143 | 144 | 145 | 146 | 147 | 148 | 149 | 150 | Search | Report a typo

​

[td]1 [For the end, for the sons of Core; a Psalm concerning secret things.] 2 God is our refuge and strength, a help in the afflictions that have come heavily upon us. 3 Therefore will we not fear when the earth is troubled, and the mountains are removed into the depths of the seas. 4 Their waters have roared and been troubled, the mountains have been troubled by his might. Pause. 5 The flowings of the river gladden the city of God: the Most High has sanctified his tabernacle. 6 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her with his countenance. 7 The nations were troubled, the kingdoms tottered: he uttered his voice, the earth shook. 8 The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our helper. Pause. 9 Come, and behold the works of the Lord, what wonders he has achieved on the earth. 10 Putting an end to wars as for the ends of the earth; he will crush the bow, and break in pieces the weapon, and burn the bucklers with fire. 11 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth. 12 The Lord of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our helper.[/td][td]
[/td]

« Previous PSALMS / ΨΑΛΜΟΙ Next »
​

Honestly @Peterlag you are lousy with references to make your point always causeing someone to hunt to see if you are truthful.

I just want to pelt you with 45 cotton balls.... 1 for each Psalm leading to what you claim is not there

What you just posted above concerning Septuagint's does not change the fact that Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

 

[Capbook]

Again, I don't see what you see. I often think it's funny that when folks quote Scripture on here it's the Word of God. When I quote Scripture it's my opinion or my interpretation. Here's the bottom line. Jesus is not God. Therefore Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to him as God. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

If you read Scripture without any interpretation, I’m afraid you are just reading your own assumptions and preconceptions of the text without knowing it.

The Father said to the Son, Your throne O God.
You are just reading your own preconceived belief, that Jesus is not God.

John 1:18 is supported by the oldest manuscripts the papyrus 66 and papyrus 75. That the original wordings was “the only-befotten God.”

Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

 

[Peterlag]

If you read Scripture without any interpretation, I’m afraid you are just reading your own assumptions and preconceptions of the text without knowing it.

The Father said to the Son, Your throne O God.
You are just reading your own preconceived belief, that Jesus is not God.

There's no Trinity. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword. The folks had NO choice. They weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

 

[Capbook]

There's no Trinity. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword. The folks had NO choice. They weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

If you read Bible verses with open mind you will see or understand the Trinity through their nature of being God. I’ quote from Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original languages from NASB.

This text speaks about the Father’s Divine Nature.(Acts 17:29)
Another verse that speaks about the Father’s divine nature. (Rom 1:20)
And Col 2:9 says, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”

Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defined Deity/Godhead as “the state or nature of God, divine nature, divine being, deity etc.

That proves Jesus have the nature of God.
If you closed your understanding just bear in mind that what John 17:3 said, eternal life is to know the Father and of who really Jesus is.

 

[Peterlag]

If you read Bible verses with open mind you will see or understand the Trinity through their nature of being God. I’ quote from Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original languages from NASB.

This text speaks about the Father’s Divine Nature.(Acts 17:29)
Another verse that speaks about the Father’s divine nature. (Rom 1:20)
And Col 2:9 says, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”

Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defined Deity/Godhead as “the state or nature of God, divine nature, divine being, deity etc.

That proves Jesus have the nature of God.
If you closed your understanding just bear in mind that what John 17:3 said, eternal life is to know the Father and of who really Jesus is.

How I see Romans 1:20...

“divine nature.” The Greek word is theiotēs θειότης, pronounced thay-'ah-tais), and it means “the quality or characteristics. It only occurs here in the Greek NT and is a rare word. Our only secular documentation occurs after the fourth century. As BDAG says, it pertains to the quality or characteristics pertaining to God, so when we see what God has made, we learn about His character.

The KJV translates the word theiotēs as “Godhead” but no modern version does. “Godhead” is an inaccurate translation. Besides the fact that God is not a Trinity, there is nothing in nature that points to any such thing. Nothing in nature is three separate things and one thing at the same time, especially not anything that could have been known as such thousands of years before Christ.

 

[Capbook]

How I see Romans 1:20...

“divine nature.” The Greek word is theiotēs θειότης, pronounced thay-'ah-tais), and it means “the quality or characteristics. It only occurs here in the Greek NT and is a rare word. Our only secular documentation occurs after the fourth century. As BDAG says, it pertains to the quality or characteristics pertaining to God, so when we see what God has made, we learn about His character.

The KJV translates the word theiotēs as “Godhead” but no modern version does. “Godhead” is an inaccurate translation. Besides the fact that God is not a Trinity, there is nothing in nature that points to any such thing. Nothing in nature is three separate things and one thing at the same time, especially not anything that could have been known as such thousands of years before Christ.

What you see in Rom 1:20 is the product of your preconceived belief. See Bible text and lexicons that proves Jesus have the same nature of divinity, as in the nature if God. See bwlow;

Rom 1:20 For  R1 since G575  the creation G2937  of the world G2889  His invisible G517  attributes, that is, His eternal G126  power G1411  and divine G2305  nature G2305 , have been clearly G2529  perceived G2529 ,  R2 being understood G3539  by what G4161  has G4161  been G4161  made G4161 , so G1519  that G1519  they are without G379  excuse G379 .

From Legacy Standard Bible Exhaustive Concordance defined it as “divinity”
θειότης
theiotēs; from 2304; divinity, divine nature: — divine nature(1).

Mounce lexicon defined it as divinity, divine majesty, etc.
θειότης
theiotēs
1x: divinity, deity, godhead, divine majesty, Rom 1:20.
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance defined it as divinity, divine nature.

Thayer defined it as divinity, divine nature.
G2305 (Thayer)
θειότης
theiotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) divinity, divine nature

That same definition of Deity/Godhead in Col 2:9.