Runningman
Active Member
Haha I needed a good laugh. I like the KJV but I am not unaware that it has flaws. Actually, you bring up a good point. The newer versions of the Bible have completely removed 1 John 5:7. It was proven to be a forgery.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Victoria
Active Member
Greetings again Keiw1,
Let's take a further look at Hebrews in 1:8-12, to get more context...
8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”
If you're familiar w/ doing cross references, we could compare verses 10-12 w/ Psalm 102:25-27. Let's first start w/ Psalm 102:1 to grasp the context...
1 O Jehovah, hear my prayer… 25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.
I would ask who you think the "you" is in verse 25, & would imagine you'd say "Jehovah." But if Psalm 102:25-27 is addressed to Jehovah, & if the author of Hebrews applies these verses to the Son, then Jesus must be truly God. He is given the glory that is alone due to Jehovah as Creator! Hebrews 2:10 says that Jehovah is "the one for whom and through whom all things exist," who made "the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings." But Colossians 1:15-16 says of the Son that "All other things have been created through him and for him." Along with John 1:3, it is clear that Jesus was not created by the Father. Christ Jesus is the eternal Son, the Almighty God incarnate
Did you know that God called Israel His firstborn in Exodus 4:22, & king David His firstborn in Psalm 89:27?
You have to take into consideration what is meant by "firstborn."
The term “firstborn” can indicate preeminence or priority in terms of rank or importance. When Paul refers to Jesus as the "firstborn over all creation" (Colossians 1:15), he is not implying that Jesus is a created being, as some have wrongly interpreted. Rather, Paul is highlighting Jesus’ preeminent role and supreme authority over all things.
According to your own translation, twice now, I was able to point out it clearly states Jesus Christ is God.
Let the scriptures be your final authority, not what you've been taught.
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Victoria
Active Member
The NIV is the worst of all modern translations b/c it lies in John 1:18 when calling Jesus Christ the "one and only Son."
However, they surely slipped up by calling Jesus Christ God, which is perfect!
So tell me again how the Received Text doesn't refer to Jesus as being God in John 1:18?
Begotten = deity
Another thing to consider is that codices Vaticanus, & Sinaiticus CONTRADICT one another!
So the confusion, my friend, doesn't lie on my end
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Victoria
Active Member
The forgeries are found in the newer versions b/c their set of manuscripts contradict one another. Textual Critic adherents do not believe God promised to preserve His Word. It sounds as if you too hold to that same belief. Therefore, man is his own final authority.
Yea, hath God said...
FreeInChrist
Active Member
civic
Active Member
so you cherry pick your favorites just as I thought.
civic
Active Member
If Jesus did not rebuke everyone below for worshipping Him then He caused them all to sin violating His own command whoever causes any one to stumble let them tie a millstone around their neck. He accepted worship, received it gladly.
Worship means “reverence paid to a divine being.” If Jesus was offered and accepted worship, then by doing so He was confirming His divinity. This is important because there are those who deny the deity of Christ, relegating Him instead to a lesser position than God. Yes, Jesus accepted worship. As the second Person of the Trinity, He was and still is worshiped.
From the beginning of Jesus’ life, we see examples of Him being worshiped. As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11). The Bible records the initial response Jesus received when He made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem: “So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is definitely a form of worship.
Just after Jesus amazed the disciples by walking on water, “those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33). Two more memorable examples of Jesus accepting worship occurred just after His resurrection. Some of the women (Matthew 28:8-9; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10) were on their way to tell the disciples of the resurrection when Jesus met them on their way. When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).
Then there is the case of Thomas, who didn’t believe Jesus had risen from the dead despite the other disciples’ testifying to that fact. It had been about a week since the resurrection, and Thomas still doubted it. Jesus, knowing Thomas doubted, appeared to him and showed him the nail marks in His hands and feet and the wound in His side. How did Thomas respond? “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop, as did mere men and even angels who were being worshiped wrongly by others (Acts 10:25–26; Revelation 19:9–10).
We continue to offer worship to Jesus today by offering ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice—offering ourselves to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to do with as He sees fit (Romans 12:1–2). Jesus said, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). We worship God in spirit and truth by obedience to His commands. Worship is not solely about bowing to Jesus, throwing palm branches at His feet, or singing and shouting about our love for Him. Worship is about knowing Him, communing with Him, serving Him, and trusting in Him.got?
next fallacy.............
hope this helps !!!
amazing grace
Active Member
Since God cannot die then Jesus Christ as a mortal being CAN die for our sins . . .
Did they think Jesus was God when he said:
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins. So they said to him, WHO ARE YOU?
. . . hmmm they didn't draw the same conclusions as you and your Trinitarian friends ---- else they would have known he was God.
The people hearing Jesus never comprehended what Jesus said about himself. They would not even comprehend him being Messiah let alone not being of this world (John 8:23). It only was after receiving the Holy Spirit did they really start to recognize the divinity of Christ. Only Thomas is noted as acknowledging Jesus as God before the day of Pentecost. This post then is in full ignorance of what Jesus said and the day of Pentecost as the start of understanding Christ's divinity.
amazing grace
Active Member
He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. . . .
The Pharisees were from below, of this world this fallen world --- they were of their father the devil "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires." [John 8:44]
Jesus was from above, not of this world - "for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me." [John 8:42b]
Apparently some comprehended what Jesus said about himself and they believed in him. These were the Pharisees, the religious leaders seeking any reason to kill him --- even some of the authorities believed in him but were afraid they would get kicked out of the synagogue if they admitted to believe in him.
John 4:39 Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
John 7:31 Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, “When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?”
John 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
John 10:42 And many believed in him there.
John 11:45 Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him,
John 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;
Jesus didn't say what I posted and they didn't respond in that manner?
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins. So they said to him, WHO ARE YOU?
Isn't that what scripture said?
The day of Pentecost was the day that the holy spirit was poured out ---- but I can't find any reference to where belief in the deity of Christ was on that day in fact Peter kept preaching that Jesus was a man and the Son of God, the Messiah.
You deny Jesus came from God and was in the world but not of it. I'm not sure why you thrown in John 8:44 since that was pointing only to the evil hearts of the Pharisees in fulfillment of Gen 3:15.
There is no other explanation of Jesus as the only one not of this world except that he speaks of his divinity.
Indeed people did believe but many fell away when then learned more. They heard enough to accept he could be the Messiah but Jesus did not share enough about his divinity so as to expect they were acknowledging that as well. Sorry if I left you in any confusion about what I meant.
Not
You missed the whole point of scriptures and what I shared. Not a surprise.
My point again is that no one understood Jesus' divinity until after the resurrection with the exception that we know Thomas declared it.
Pharisees recognized it in the words Jesus spoke and called him out on blasphemy because they did not know who Jesus is.
I'm outing you on your mistaken view because you made it sound like some should have truly recognized Jesus' divinity at that point. No matter what Peter shared in his preaching, that does not undo the passages of Jesus' divinity.
amazing grace
Active Member
Again, you are accusing me of something that is a lie. I haven't ever said that Jesus didn't come from God.
Because John 8:44 is in the context of : He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. . . .
He didn't mean he was from another planet!!!
Jesus was from above, not of this world - "for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me." [John 8:42b] - just read the text . . . he came from God . . . . HOW DID HE COME FROM GOD? HOW DID GOD SEND HIM?
The record of his birth is in Matthew and Luke. It doesn't mean he is deity.
Then why don't you quote me what you bible says John 8:23-25
I didn't miss what you said . . . I think it's wrong just as I think it is still wrong.
Yes, Thomas did say 'My Lord and My God' . . . No matter what exalted title is given to Jesus, Jesus still has a God above him - Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” . . . . . and that God is his Father so Jesus is NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD. If Moses can be called god (Ex. 7:1) as God's agent, then why not Jesus, the superior agent of God.
They accused Jesus of blasphemy because they did not believe he was who he repeatedly said he was - the Son of God, the Messiah.
Apparently, there were some who did believe in Jesus and what he was teaching.
Peter knew exactly who Jesus was: He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. . . . and that is what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.
There are no passages about Jesus' deity - he was not God.
It exactly means he is from heaven. it means effectively that he is not mere human. Anything less than that is a denial that he came from God. He does not have to state explicitly that he was in full agreement in being sent to show his divinity. He only needed to say what he said.
Your quote means nothing because you said he was just born of flesh as a human. That denies that, per 23, he came from above. You just do not comprehend the verse.
So you expect the divine Son to deny the divine Father? That is crazy speak.
You never quite get it right. First, it more likely a relative statement, like a prophet. Jesus is not said to be made like God. Te scripture is affirmative of his divinity, as in john 1:1-18. He is Lord from his birth.
There is nothing about claiming to be Messiah that is called blasphemy except, as the High Priest recognized, that the Messiah is seen as deity first.
Your reading comprehension fails again. The point is that despite Jesus speaking of his divinity in subtle ways throughout his ministry, no one grasped that. Few even recognized him as Messiah but even many of those fell away.
It was after Pentecost that people then remembered Jesus speaking of his divinity. I have no confidence in your ability to read this stuff and share it properly.
Runningman
Active Member
There is nothing contextual about Jesus being worshipped as God in any of these verses. No standing instructions for people to worship him as God, no teachings or preachings about it, no examples of him being worshipped after God took him to heaven.
Runningman
Active Member
Would you like to debate me on the topic of trinitarianism using only the vocabulary provided by the Bible? Any version or translation is fine with me. Let's just use the English translation of your choosing. Up to you.
civic
Active Member
worship God alone is a command, to violate that is to sin. Jesus was worshipped by many.
next fallacy
civic
Active Member
only if you stick to one verse at a time and exegete the passage, define words that we agree on their meaning.
I will begin with 1 Corinthians 8:6.
That single passage will end this debate.
You will be unable to escape that one passage to defend your beliefs. I will be able to defend the Deity of Christ with that solitary passage.
I'm setting you up with the uni's favorite, goto passage. I'm handing this to you on a silver platter.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yes, Jesus came down from heaven; Jesus came from God; God sent him; which is equivalent to 'I am from above --- I am not of this world. And he did come from heaven, he did come from God, God did send him, God gave his only Son via birth which is not a denial that he came from God - Mary conceived by God - God was his Father.
He was born as a human being - isn't denying Jesus came in the flesh, i.e. a human being antichrist?
No idea what you're getting at . . . . the Son is not deity . . . HE HAS A FATHER WHO IS HIS FATHER AND HIS GOD.
You never quite get it right. John 1:1-18 does not say that Jesus is God.
You never quite get it right-----1) Jesus kept telling them he was the Christ, the Messiah-----2) they did not believe he was who he said he was. When Jesus told them he was the Christ, the Messiah - they knew that 'Messiah' did not mean he was God.
Thanks, but I think instead of always making accusations you may need to take a good look at yourself.
Where did Jesus speak of his deity in subtle ways? Why would he speak of his deity subtly instead of boldly - our very salvation depends upon belief in his deity (so the Trinitarians say)?
I have no confidence in your ability to read this stuff and share it properly. You totally disregard anything Jesus said during his ministry.
He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” [Matt. 17:5] Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” [John 18:37]
amazing grace
Active Member
. . . Jesus seemed to reason and dispute in a tight logical fashion as he sought to defend his claims against fierce opposition. Jesus obviously argued, from the Old Testament, the Bible of his time. Would not a Christian do the same thing, adding the New Testament Scriptures to his source of divine information? And if he claimed to believe in scriptural words understood in their normal, logical and grammatical sense, would it not be rather suspect to hear theologians telling us that the language is inadequate to explain the mystery of the Trinity? . . . Christianity, it is assumed, is based on the recorded teachings of Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of God and Messiah and who congratulated his leading disciples for their brilliant God-given insight in recognizing him as such------"the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of God" (Matt. 16:16-18). On that impregnable rock foundation Jesus promised to build his church. . . . . Jesus teh Messiah and the Son of God . . . Jesus claimed before his followers as well as before Jewish officials at his trial, to be the Messiah promised by his own Hebrew heritage in the Hebrew Bible. Jesus defined "Messiah" from that library of writings we call the Old Testament, whose limits Jesus defined precisely as 'the Law, prophets and the writings' (Luke 24:44). These precious documents had promised from the beginning that a unique Savior, King and final prophet would be born to Israel. Jesus obviously treated the Hebrew Bible as a repository of divine, authoritative truth about what his God, the Creator and the God of Israel, was doing in the history of humankind.
Jesus was not a Trinitarian, A Call to Return to the Creed of Jesus, Anthony Buzzard
Jesus was not a Trinitarian, A Call to Return to the Creed of Jesus, Anthony Buzzard
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Greetings again Keiw1,
Let's take a further look at Hebrews in 1:8-12, to get more context...
8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.” 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”
If you're familiar w/ doing cross references, we could compare verses 10-12 w/ Psalm 102:25-27. Let's first start w/ Psalm 102:1 to grasp the context...
1 O Jehovah, hear my prayer… 25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.
I would ask who you think the "you" is in verse 25, & would imagine you'd say "Jehovah." But if Psalm 102:25-27 is addressed to Jehovah, & if the author of Hebrews applies these verses to the Son, then Jesus must be truly God. He is given the glory that is alone due to Jehovah as Creator! Hebrews 2:10 says that Jehovah is "the one for whom and through whom all things exist," who made "the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings." But Colossians 1:15-16 says of the Son that "All other things have been created through him and for him." Along with John 1:3, it is clear that Jesus was not created by the Father. Christ Jesus is the eternal Son, the Almighty God incarnate
Did you know that God called Israel His firstborn in Exodus 4:22, & king David His firstborn in Psalm 89:27?
You have to take into consideration what is meant by "firstborn."
The term “firstborn” can indicate preeminence or priority in terms of rank or importance. When Paul refers to Jesus as the "firstborn over all creation" (Colossians 1:15), he is not implying that Jesus is a created being, as some have wrongly interpreted. Rather, Paul is highlighting Jesus’ preeminent role and supreme authority over all things.
According to your own translation, twice now, I was able to point out it clearly states Jesus Christ is God.
Let the scriptures be your final authority, not what you've been taught.
All prayers go to Jehovah( Father).
Yes psalm 102 :1-- Jehovah is the creator)-
US of Gen 1:26 = only 1 of those created. In verse 27-HE( not we or us) created-- Prov 8:27-28-HE created. He is a single being. That is why at Isaiah 44:24= God said he created all by myself ( this means the only one with the power and knowledge and wisdom to create anything. This is exactly what the bible teaches occurred. The US at Gen 1:26= Jehovah) ( creator) and his master worker( Jesus) = Prov 8:22-30) the one who was beside God( architect) during the creating. The master worker( builder) speaking at Prov 8:22 until the end. The Hebrew word translated possessed at verse 22= created=Gods master worker created direct, first and last= the first born of all creation( Coll 1:15-16)= The only begotten son( monogenes= unique) PROOF= All other things were created-THROUGH- Jesus( Gods master worker( John 1:3--Coll 1:15-16)---through means another did the creating. = His God and Father.
I hope this helps you see bible facts.
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