Runningman
Active Member
I can explain John 17:5 in the context of John 17 and the rest of the Bible. I wouldn't want to be guilty of akin to an atheist and deny the exclusive deity of the Father like you do though.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Runningman
Active Member
Let's focus on how Abraham had an only begotten son up until a point. You're halfway there, but your anti-Christ religion is standing in your way. The only reason you want to deny the others being God's sons/daughters is because you probably have a "God the son" theory you want to work in somehow. Well, you have a steep hill climb against Scripture. I am sure that won't stop you from trying.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I didn't deny them being sons. You can't read. You even forgot about Ishmael. You are certainly unlearned. Don't pretend otherwise. You try again.
are you arguing again against views there are separate gods? Not sure why you argue against polytheism when that is not part of the discussion. It seems you just are lost about what topic is being discussed.
As far as you have tried to explain JOhn 17:5, all you have done is denied what it says.
Runningman
Active Member
For your comparison between Abraham's only begotten son and God's only begotten Son to be congruent, you lose some significant points. First of all, you must assume the position that Abraham's son and God's Son are not eternal beings. You must also assume that they were the only begotten sons at a point, until later when they were not. It looks like you really don't have a point. Trinitarianism is a losing argument when you try to force it onto Scripture. Scripture hits back twice as hard.
Runningman
Active Member
Only one person who is God according to John 17:1-3. You haven't asked me to explain John 17:5. I can, but even your explanation doesn't undo what was previously stated about who the only true God is.
That is ignorant language unless you are applying the philosophical concept that differs from a "person" having to be a human.
As to John 17:5, you have been able to misrepresent it many times in the past. Another time hardly makes it an accurate view.
But I do like to help people remember the errors you are making.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I told you that you don't understand why Isaac was referenced as Abraham's only begotten son. I said Isaac was unique. You need to deal with how Isaac was unique. You're not doing that at all.
You're assumption about my position are a farce. Try again. You don't know Trinitarian beliefs. Do you really not know that Ishmael was alive when Isaac was born?
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Runningman
Active Member
The only relevance is foreshadowing between begotten sons being sacrificed. An immortal God wasn't sacrificed.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Empty claims......
So who are you dying for? It took no less than God dying for sin to establish the Atonement.
At every level, you're just so lost in your theology.....
Runningman
Active Member
You said before that Unitarians don't want to deal with the word "only" but it's funny how that comment hasn't aged well at all. Actually, absolutes like "only" is where you lose the trinity completely.
My turn, wanna deal with the word "only" in John 17:3 with me or are you scared?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It has aged just fine. You really don't know your theology. I've meet children that know more about this than you do. You didn't even know Ishmael was the first son of Abraham. You're making all of this up as you go. You have no meaningful experience in any of this.
So back to Ishmael and Isaac.
Why was Isaac referenced as the "only son" of Abraham when Ishmael had long been the son of Abraham?
I insist you tell us all who you're dying for an how it equals what Jesus Christ died for? Again. I'm comparing your lame accomplishments and scoundrelly existence to what Jesus Christ accomplished.
If you're going to talk bad about Jesus Christ, I'm going to point out every single fault you have yourself. Such proves you're a fake when compared to Jesus Christ. Nothing more than a feeble man claiming things he can't possibly accomplish yourself.
In other words. A scoundrel. Dishonorable. Villainous.
I tell you who you remind me of and it certainly isn't Jesus. You remind me of Alexander.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
must we remind you that Jesus as divinity is not a separate god. He is equally divine in the only true God. You keep fighting against a polytheist viewpoint that is not being shared by anyone here.
Runningman
Active Member
That is a previously refuted talking point. Being divine is totally unrelated to being God at all. Maybe you're a Mormon. I think they also think anyone who is divine becomes a god with their own planet.
2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
see? you cannot even identify mormonism from christianity. You are more confused.
you know when I speak of scriptures about the divinity of Christ that I am speaking of Jesus in the Godhead. You constantly get confused because you do not know Christ in his essence so you make him out to be mere man.
Even with Christians becoming partakers of divine nature it does not make them into God, as Jesus is God.
Runningman
Active Member
The official stance of the Mormon church is trinitarian. It's a little different than the orthodox, but not vastly different. Aside from some nuances they are closer to what you believe, which is not Christianity. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus and his teachings about who God is. Christianity is just Unitarianism. Unitarianism just gives it a name to distinguish it from trinitarianism and other cults who also call their religion Christianity too.
You show awareness of this with your comments about Mormonism. Provided you believe similar things that the Mormons do and you distinguish them from Christianity, you accidently indict yourself as a heretic. Honesty with yourself is a good first step. Confess those sins, but be honest. No matter how bad you've been, remember God just wants to hear you speak the truth.
Funny how you make things up about unitarianism. I guess your make-believe world lets you decide what to promote and what to reject of true Christianity.
It figures you could compare Mormonism to anything else being a cult that makes everyone a god or potential god. Unitarianism does that by making themselves able to be equal to Jesus, as if anyone could also be divine in the Godhead.
At least people take you as seriously as they do mormonites in this forum.
You claim gnostic insight and boast in a different Jesus while rejecting that most people have been within the teachings of the Triune God. You pretend that they all have failed to come to the true Jesus and that your little clan is the elite ones who found some new truth.
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Runningman
Active Member
Well, I am tempted to make a side by side comparison chart so it can be seen at a glance how un-Christian your beliefs are compared to what Unitarian beliefs are, with what the Bible explicitly states. Unitarian beliefs are remarkably Biblical. We have very few divisions on doctrine and none of them are deal breakers. We also don't have have cults like you confess of certain trinitarian sects.
I used ChatGPT to help me draft this up. It's vetted and accurate. Trinitarianism is not the same religion as Biblical Christianity.
| Topic | Trinitarian Belief | Unitarian Belief | What the Bible Says |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nature of God | One God in three coequal, coeternal Persons — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). | One God, the Father alone is the only true God. Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God, not God Himself. | “This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” — John 17:3; “For us there is one God, the Father.” — 1 Cor 8:6 |
| Identity of Jesus | Jesus is fully God and fully man, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, eternal and uncreated (John 1:1). | Jesus is God’s human Son, miraculously begotten, representing God’s Word and authority but not the same Being as God. | “The man Christ Jesus” — 1 Tim 2:5; “God has made this Jesus… both Lord and Christ.” — Acts 2:36; “My Father is greater than I.” — John 14:28 |
| Holy Spirit | The Holy Spirit is the third divine Person of the Trinity, coequal with Father and Son. | The Spirit is God’s power, presence, or mind in action — not a separate divine Person. | “God has poured out His Spirit upon all flesh.” — Acts 2:17; “The Holy Spirit of God” — Eph 4:30 (possessive, not independent person). |
| Jesus’ Origin | Jesus pre-existed eternally as God the Son before His birth. | Jesus began when He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary (Luke 1:35). | “The holy thing born of you shall be called the Son of God.” — Luke 1:35; “Today I have begotten you.” — Heb 1:5 |
| Jesus’ Relationship to the Father | Equal in essence but distinct in person; unity of substance. | Subordinate to the Father; depends on Him for authority, life, and teaching. | “The Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing.” — John 5:19; “My teaching is not mine.” — John 7:16 |
| Worship | Jesus and the Holy Spirit are worshiped as God. | Worship is directed to the Father through the Son. | “You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.” — Matt 4:10; “I ascend to My Father and your Father, My God and your God.” — John 20:17 |
| God’s Visibility | God the Son appeared in the Old Testament and incarnated as Jesus. | God is invisible; Jesus reveals God’s character and speaks His words. | “No one has ever seen God.” — John 1:18; “He is the image of the invisible God.” — Col 1:15 |
| Salvation | Comes through faith in the divine Christ whose death has infinite value because He is God. | Comes through faith in the human Messiah, whom God raised and exalted. | “By a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.” — 1 Cor 15:21; “God raised Him from the dead.” — Acts 2:24 |
| Jesus’ Knowledge | As God, He is omniscient; as man, He voluntarily limited knowledge. | As man, He genuinely did not know certain things because He is not God. | “Of that day and hour no one knows, not even the Son.” — Mark 13:32 |
| God’s Oneness | “One Being, three Persons.” | “One Being, one Person — the Father.” | “I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.” — Isa 45:5; “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” — 1 Tim 2:5 |
Runningman
Active Member
@Peterlag @amazing grace @Pancho Frijoles @Keiw1 see the table above. Nice isn't it? Feel free to use that. It's a useful tool to demonstrate to fallacies of trinitarianism.
Great. That reaffirms the points you so desire to disregard. You get deceived by scriptures in the way you study.
It is not the passages that you love that make an argument. It is the passages that you reject that crush your viewpoint.
