A question just to start things off.

[Johann]

PROPITIATION (from Rom. 3:25)

In the Greco-Roman world this word carried the concept of a restoration of fellowship with an estranged deity by means of a price being paid. However, it is not used in this sense in the Septuagint. It was used in the Septuagint and in Heb. 9:5 to translate "mercy seat" (BDB 498, KB 495, cf. Exod. 25:21-22; Lev. 16:12-15), which was the lid of the ark of the covenant located in the Holy of Holies, the place where atonement was procured on behalf of the nation on the Day of Atonement (cf. Leviticus 16).

Obviously Paul is using sacrificial metaphors in Rom. 3:25 taken from Israel's sacrificial system i.e., Leviticus 1-7; . These metaphors (i.e., "propitiation," "ransom," "sacrifice") are understood only in connection with the OT oracles of God.

Paul then must explain their relevance to all mankind. YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham/Israel to reveal Himself to all; all are in His image; all have rebelled; all can be saved through faith in Christ

This term must be dealt with in a way that does not lessen God's revulsion to sin, but affirms His positive redemptive attitude toward sinners. A good discussion is found in James Stewart's A Man in Christ, pp. 214-224. One way to accomplish this is to translate the term so that it reflects God's work in Christ; "a propitiatory sacrifice"; or "with propitiatory power."

RANSOM/REDEEM

I. OLD TESTAMENT

A. There are primarily two Hebrew legal terms which convey this concept.

1. Ga'al (BDB 145 I, KB 169 I), which basically means "to free by means of a price paid." A form of the term go'el adds to the concept a personal intermediary, usually a family member (i.e., kinsman redeemer). This cultural aspect of the right to buy back objects, animals, land (cf. Leviticus 25,27), or relatives (cf. Ruth 4:14; Isa. 29:22) is transferred theologically to YHWH's deliverance of Israel from Egypt (cf. Exod. 6:6; 15:13; Ps. 74:2; 77:15; Jer. 31:11). He becomes "the Redeemer" (cf. Job 19:25; Ps. 19:14; 78:35; Pro. 23:11; Isa. 41:14; 43:14; 44:6,24; 47:4; 48:17; 49:7,26; 54:5,8; 59:20; 60:16; 63:16; Jer. 50:34).

2. Padah (BDB 804, KB 911), which basically means "to deliver" or "to rescue."

a. the redemption of the firstborn (Exod. 13:13-15 and Num. 18:15-17)

b. physical redemption is contrasted with spiritual redemption (Ps. 49:7,8,15)

c. YHWH will redeem Israel from their sin and rebellion (Ps. 130:7-8)

B. The theological concept involves several related items.

1. There is a need, a bondage, a forfeiting, an imprisonment.

a. physical

b. social

c. spiritual (cf. Ps. 130:8)

2. A price must be paid for freedom, release, and restoration.

a. of the nation of Israel (cf. Deut. 7:8)

b. of the individual (cf. Job 19:25-27; 33:28; Isaiah 53)

3. Someone must act as intermediary and benefactor. In ga'al this one is usually a family member or near kin (i.e., go'el, BDB 145).

4. YHWH often describes Himself in familial terms.

a. Father

b. Husband

c. Near Kin Redeemer/Avenger Redemption was secured through YHWH's personal agency; a price was paid, and redemption was achieved!

II. NEW TESTAMENT

A. There are several terms used to convey the theological concept.

1. Agorazō (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; 2 Pet. 2:1; Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4). This is a commercial term which reflects a price paid for something. We are blood-bought people who do not control our own lives. We belong to Christ.

2. Exagorazō (cf. Gal. 3:13; 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5). This is also a commercial term. It reflects Jesus' substitutionary death on our behalf. Jesus bore the "curse" of a performance-based law (i.e., Mosaic Law, cf. Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:14), which sinful humans could not accomplish. He bore the curse (cf. Deut. 21:23) for us all (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21)! In Jesus, God's justice and love merge into full forgiveness, acceptance, and access!

3. Luō, "to set free"

a. Lutron, "a price paid" (cf. Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45). These are powerful words from Jesus' own mouth concerning the purpose of His coming, to be the Savior of the world by paying a sin-debt He did not owe (cf. John 1:29).

b. Lutroō, "to release"

(1) to redeem Israel (Luke 24:21)

(2) to give Himself to redeem and purify a people (Titus 2:14)

(3) to be a sinless substitute (1 Pet. 1:18-19)

c. Lutrōsis, "redemption," "deliverance," or "liberation"

(1) Zacharias' prophecy about Jesus, Luke 1:68

(2) Anna's praise to God for Jesus, Luke 2:38

(3) Jesus' better, once offered sacrifice, Heb. 9:12

4. Apolytrōsis

a. redemption at the Second Coming (cf. Acts 3:19-21)

(1) Luke 21:28

(2) Romans 8:23

(3) Ephesians 1:14; 4:30

(4) Hebrews 9:15

b. redemption in Christ's death

(1) Romans 3:24

(2) 1 Corinthians 1:30

(3) Ephesians 1:7

(4) Colossians 1:14

5. Antilytron (cf. 1 Tim. 2:6). This is a crucial text (as is Titus 2:14) which links release to Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross. He is the one and only acceptable sacrifice, the one who dies for "all" (cf. John 1:29; 3:16-17; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).

B. The theological concept in the NT.

1. Mankind is enslaved to sin (cf. John 8:34; Rom. 3:10-18,23; 6:23).

2. Mankind's bondage to sin has been revealed by the OT Mosaic Law (cf. Galatians 3) and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (cf. Matthew 5-7). Human performance has become a death sentence (cf. Col. 2:14).

3. Jesus, the sinless lamb of God, has come and died in our place (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). We have been purchased from sin so that we might serve God (cf. Romans 6).

4. By implication both YHWH and Jesus are "near kin" who act on our behalf. This continues the familial metaphors (i.e., father, husband, son, brother, near kin).

5. Redemption was not a price paid to Satan (i.e., Medieval theology), but the reconciliation of God's word and God's justice with God's love and full provision in Christ. At the cross peace was restored, human rebellion was forgiven, the image of God in mankind is now fully functional again in intimate fellowship!

6. There is still a future aspect of redemption (cf. Rom. 8:23; Eph. 1:14; 4:30), which involves our resurrection bodies and personal intimacy with the Triune God . Our resurrected bodies will be like His (cf. 1 John 3:2). He had a physical body, but with an extra dimensional aspect. It is hard to define the paradox of 1 Cor. 15:12-19 with 1 Cor. 15:35-58. Obviously there is a physical, earthly body and there will be a heavenly, spiritual body. Jesus had both!

Johann.

 

[Johann]

this below from the Greek Experts/ Scholars also agree with my previous post.

And He is the propitiation] Or, And He Himself is a propitiation: there is no article in the Greek. Note the present tense throughout; ‘we have an Advocate, He is a propitiation’: this condition of things is perpetual, it is not something which took place once for all long ago. In His glorified Body the Son is ever acting thus. Contrast ‘He laid down His life for us’ (1 John 3:16). Beware of the unsatisfactory explanation that ‘propitiation’ is the abstract for the concrete, ‘propitiation’ (ἱλασμός) for ‘propitiator’ (ἱλαστήρ). Had S. John written ‘propitiator’ we should have lost half the truth; viz. that our Advocate propitiates by offering Himself. He is both High Priest and Victim, both Propitiator and Propitiation. It is quite obvious that He is the former; the office of Advocate includes it. It is not at all obvious that He is the latter: very rarely does an advocate offer himself as a propitiation.

The word for ‘propitiation’ occurs nowhere in N. T. but here and in 1 John 4:10; in both places without the article and followed by ‘for our sins’. It signifies any action which has expiation as its object, whether prayer, compensation, or sacrifice. Thus ‘the ram of the atonement’ (Numbers 5:8) is ‘the ram of the propitiation’ or ‘expiation’, where the same Greek word as is used here is used in the LXX. Comp. Ezekiel 44:27; Numbers 29:11; Leviticus 25:9. The LXX. of ‘there is forgiveness with Thee’ (Psalm 130:4) is remarkable: literally rendered it is ‘before Thee is the propitiation’ (ὁ ἱλασμός). So also the Vulgate, apud Te propitiatio est. And this is the idea that we have here: Jesus Christ, as being righteous, is ever present before the Lord as the propitiation. With this we should compare the use of the cognate verb in Hebrews 2:17 and cognate substantive Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5. From these passages it is clear that in N. T. the word is closely connected with that special form of expiation which takes place by means of an offering or sacrifice, although this idea is not of necessity included in the radical signification of the word itself. See notes in all three places.

for our sins] Literally, concerning (περἱ) our sins: our sins are the matter respecting which the propitiation goes on. This is the common form of expression in LXX. Comp. Numbers 29:11; Exodus 30:15-16; Exodus 32:30; Leviticus 4:20; Leviticus 4:26; Leviticus 4:31; Leviticus 4:35, &c. &c. Similarly, in John 8:46, ‘Which of you convicteth Me of sin?’ is literally, ‘Which of you convicteth Me concerning sin?’ Comp. John 16:8; John 10:33. Notice that it is ‘our sins’, not ‘our sin’: the sins which we are daily committing, and not merely the sinfulness of our nature, are the subject of the propitiation.

1 John 2:2 - Cambridge Greek Testament Commentary

What does 1 John 2:2 mean? Commentary, explanation and study verse by verse by Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges Commentary. ONLINE and FREE

www.bibliaplus.org

 

[Johann]

So-to study propitiation-see how deep we need to study, not necc the meaning of the word-
A — 1: ἱλάσκομαι ►
(Strong's #2433 — Verb — hilaskomai — hil-as'-kom-ahee )
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.
The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4; 14:20; 16:24 , the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16,18 , the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20,26,31,35 , the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10; 9:7 , the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15,17 , as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33 , and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11 , and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

B — 1: ἱλαστήριον ►
(Strong's #2435 — Noun Neuter — hilasterion — hil-as-tay'-ree-on )
akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17; 37:6 , of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-22; 31:7; 35:12; 37:7,8,9; Leviticus 16:2,13-15; Numbers 7:89 , and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5 .

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11 , when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22 .
"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

B — 2: ἱλασμός ►
(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10 , the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9; Numbers 5:8; 1 Chronicles 28:20; Psalm 130:4; Ezekiel 44:27; Amos 8:14 .

Propitiation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words -

A 1: ἱλάσκομαι ► (Strong's #2433 Verb hilaskomai hil-as'-kom-ahee ) ;was used amongst the Greeks with the significance 'to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate,' inasmuch as their good will was

www.studylight.org

And the link is free.
Shalom
J.

 

[civic]

So-to study propitiation-see how deep we need to study, not necc the meaning of the word-
A — 1: ἱλάσκομαι ►
(Strong's #2433 — Verb — hilaskomai — hil-as'-kom-ahee )
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.

Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Hebrews 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.
The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Leviticus 1:4; 14:20; 16:24 , the guilt offering e.g., Leviticus 5:16,18 , the sin offering, e.g., Leviticus 4:20,26,31,35 , the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Leviticus 5:10; 9:7 , the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezekiel 45:15,17 , as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exodus 29:33 , and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Leviticus 17:11 , and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

B — 1: ἱλαστήριον ►
(Strong's #2435 — Noun Neuter — hilasterion — hil-as-tay'-ree-on )
akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exodus 25:17; 37:6 , of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exodus 25:18-22; 31:7; 35:12; 37:7,8,9; Leviticus 16:2,13-15; Numbers 7:89 , and this is its use in Hebrews 9:5 .

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Romans 3:25 , where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.
Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Leviticus 17:11 , when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Hebrews 9:22 .
"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

B — 2: ἱλασμός ►
(Strong's #2434 — Noun Masculine — hilasmos — hil-as-mos' )
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10 , signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10 , the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Leviticus 25:9; Numbers 5:8; 1 Chronicles 28:20; Psalm 130:4; Ezekiel 44:27; Amos 8:14 .

Propitiation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words -

A 1: ἱλάσκομαι ► (Strong's #2433 Verb hilaskomai hil-as'-kom-ahee ) ;was used amongst the Greeks with the significance 'to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate,' inasmuch as their good will was

www.studylight.org

And the link is free.
Shalom
J.

So we see that it is in fact paganism/greek philosophy where the idea of an angry god needs to be appeased, not from Scripture. That is why expiate is a better word/idea that has the more biblical concept of atonement. See my update here

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/#post-823

 

[Johann]

So we see that it is in fact paganism/greek philosophy where the idea of an angry god needs to be appeased, not from Scripture. That is why expiate is a better word/idea that has the more biblical concept of atonement. See my update here

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/#post-823

Problem here brother is that "expiate" is not found in Scriptures and we need the Jewish viewpoint and see how it was used in Lev.
Some would disagree with this but I find the ancient rabbinical writings helpful.

ἱλάσκομαι
hilaskomai
hil-as'-kom-ahee
Middle voice from the same as G2436; to conciliate, that is, (transitively) to atone for (sin), or (intransitively) be propitious: - be merciful, make reconciliation for.

LXX related word(s)
H3722 kaphar pi.
H5162 nacham ni.
H5545 salach

Thayer Definition:
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

EX'PIATE, v.t. [L. expio; ex and pio, to worship, to atone; pius, pious, mild. The primary sense is probably to appease, to pacify, to allay resentment, which is the usual sense of atone in most languages which I have examined. Pio is probably contracted from pico, and from the root of paco, the radical sense of which is to lay, set or fix; the primary sense of peach, pax. Hence the sense of mild in pius. But this opinion is offered only as probable.

1. To atone for; to make satisfaction for; to extinguish the guilt of a crime by subsequent acts of piety or worship, by which the obligation to punish the crime is canceled. To expiate guilt or a crime, is to perform some act which is supposed to purify the person guilty; or some act which is accepted by the offended party as satisfaction for the injury; that is, some act by which his wrath is appeased,and his forgiveness procured.
2. To make reparation for; as, to expiate an injury.
3. To avert the threats of prodigies.
Webster.

Johann.

 

[Diserner]

So we see that it is in fact paganism/greek philosophy where the idea of an angry god needs to be appeased, not from Scripture.

That is such demonic logic with no Scriptural backing, making a brazenly misleading claim... these verses clearly show either the Bible is pagan Greek philosophy, or your statement is a flat out lie from hell:

26 And David built there an altar to the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called on the LORD; and He answered him from heaven by fire on the altar of burnt offering.
27 So the LORD commanded the angel, and he returned his sword to its sheath.
28 At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he sacrificed there.
29 For the tabernacle of the LORD and the altar of the burnt offering, which Moses had made in the wilderness, were at that time at the high place in Gibeon.
30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the LORD. (1 Chr. 21:26-30 NKJ)

Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them. (Ps. 106:23 NKJ)

Why should the Egyptians speak, and say,`He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth '? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. (Exod. 32:12 NKJ)

30 "So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.
31 "Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD. (Ezek. 22:30-31 NKJ)

46 So Moses said to Aaron, "Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense on it, and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun."
47 Then Aaron took it as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the assembly; and already the plague had begun among the people. So he put in the incense and made atonement for the people.
48 And he stood between the dead and the living; so the plague was stopped. (Num. 16:46-48 NKJ)

Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal. (Num. 25:11 NKJ)

Nevertheless the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him. (2 Ki. 23:26 NKJ)

When he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, so as not to destroy him completely; and things also went well in Judah. (2 Chr. 12:12 NKJ)

Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us. (2 Chr. 29:10 NKJ)

"Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you. (2 Chr. 30:8 NKJ)

Please, let the leaders of our entire assembly stand; and let all those in our cities who have taken pagan wives come at appointed times, together with the elders and judges of their cities, until the fierce wrath of our God is turned away from us in this matter." (Ezr. 10:14 NKJ)

But He, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, And did not destroy them. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; (Ps. 78:38 NKJ) You have taken away all Your wrath; You have turned from the fierceness of Your anger. (Ps. 85:3 NKJ) Shall evil be repaid for good? For they have dug a pit for my life. Remember that I stood before You To speak good for them, To turn away Your wrath from them. (Jer. 18:20 NKJ)

.......

You think God likes to kill animals just for fun as some kind of moral lesson?

Do you think transferring sins to guilt offerings with laying on of hands is just to show God has cheap forgiveness that cost him nothing, devalues the seriousness of evil, and violates his justice?

Do you think the day of atonement and the slaughter and burning up of the sacrifice on the altar, and the sprinkling of blood on the literal holiest of holy places, has no meaning of the need for something to die and suffer and be punished for sins?

And the entire book of Hebrews saying it all was a picture of Christ is all just a silly waste, and the Passover Blood protecting the people from the angel of death because something had to die in their place?

Under the guise of a cheap love that denigrates Christ's suffering, is one of the blackest, most vile wicked lies full of blasphemy and abomination, the very first lie Satan ever said, "You shall not surely die for your sin... God can just skip all that punishment stuff."

 

[Johann]

Do you think the day of atonement and the slaughter and burning up of the sacrifice on the altar, and the sprinkling of blood on the literal holiest of holy places, has no meaning of the need for something to die and suffer and be punished for sins?

And the entire book of Hebrews saying it all was a picture of Christ is all just a silly waste, and the Passover Blood protecting the people from the angel of death because something had to die in their place?

What are you saying here brother?

 

[sethproton]

Yes, I've done that brother.

Both ancient and modern mediators actively mediate between parties, they do not do a one-time negotiation.

In fact, I have recently had to have a mediator with my grandfather's will, as the uncle is trying to steal all the money.

Once he is appointed, he continues to work between the parties.

Whatever definition you seem to have found somewhere—and you said you don't recall and can't produce any concrete evidence of—was inaccurate.

I told you exactly where the evidence was the lexicons and the contexts of the words. Are you saying you don't care how the Greek defines the words or what the context tells? I apologize if I am misunderstanding your post.
As for your example two things - with your uncle, once the mediator brings them to an agreement, the mediator is done/ Job finished.
Christ mediated in his blood, once for all. Would you be comforatable saying that our agreement with God has not been fully mediated, and our inheritance is not really set yet?

 

[civic]

That is such demonic logic with no Scriptural backing, making a brazenly misleading claim... these verses clearly show either the Bible is pagan Greek philosophy, or your statement is a flat out lie from hell:

26 And David built there an altar to the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called on the LORD; and He answered him from heaven by fire on the altar of burnt offering.
27 So the LORD commanded the angel, and he returned his sword to its sheath.
28 At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he sacrificed there.
29 For the tabernacle of the LORD and the altar of the burnt offering, which Moses had made in the wilderness, were at that time at the high place in Gibeon.
30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the LORD. (1 Chr. 21:26-30 NKJ)

Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them. (Ps. 106:23 NKJ)

Why should the Egyptians speak, and say,`He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth '? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. (Exod. 32:12 NKJ)

30 "So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.
31 "Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD. (Ezek. 22:30-31 NKJ)

46 So Moses said to Aaron, "Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense on it, and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun."
47 Then Aaron took it as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the assembly; and already the plague had begun among the people. So he put in the incense and made atonement for the people.
48 And he stood between the dead and the living; so the plague was stopped. (Num. 16:46-48 NKJ)

Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal. (Num. 25:11 NKJ)

Nevertheless the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him. (2 Ki. 23:26 NKJ)

When he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, so as not to destroy him completely; and things also went well in Judah. (2 Chr. 12:12 NKJ)

Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us. (2 Chr. 29:10 NKJ)

"Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you. (2 Chr. 30:8 NKJ)

Please, let the leaders of our entire assembly stand; and let all those in our cities who have taken pagan wives come at appointed times, together with the elders and judges of their cities, until the fierce wrath of our God is turned away from us in this matter." (Ezr. 10:14 NKJ)

But He, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, And did not destroy them. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; (Ps. 78:38 NKJ) You have taken away all Your wrath; You have turned from the fierceness of Your anger. (Ps. 85:3 NKJ) Shall evil be repaid for good? For they have dug a pit for my life. Remember that I stood before You To speak good for them, To turn away Your wrath from them. (Jer. 18:20 NKJ)

.......

You think God likes to kill animals just for fun as some kind of moral lesson?

Do you think transferring sins to guilt offerings with laying on of hands is just to show God has cheap forgiveness that cost him nothing, devalues the seriousness of evil, and violates his justice?

Do you think the day of atonement and the slaughter and burning up of the sacrifice on the altar, and the sprinkling of blood on the literal holiest of holy places, has no meaning of the need for something to die and suffer and be punished for sins?

And the entire book of Hebrews saying it all was a picture of Christ is all just a silly waste, and the Passover Blood protecting the people from the angel of death because something had to die in their place?

Under the guise of a cheap love that denigrates Christ's suffering, is one of the blackest, most vile wicked lies full of blasphemy and abomination, the very first lie Satan ever said, "You shall not surely die for your sin... God can just skip all that punishment stuff."

I’ll deal with your entire fallacious argument after work today . I will gladly disprove your presuppositions.

 

[sethproton]

Yes, I've done that brother.

Both ancient and modern mediators actively mediate between parties, they do not do a one-time negotiation.

In fact, I have recently had to have a mediator with my grandfather's will, as the uncle is trying to steal all the money.

Once he is appointed, he continues to work between the parties.

Whatever definition you seem to have found somewhere—and you said you don't recall and can't produce any concrete evidence of—was inaccurate.

agreed, one time negotiation is not common for earthly courts, but whether it was once for all in His blood in Heaven, or the earthly ongoing type of mediation. it still has a meaning in the earthly and heavenly courts,One person works to reconcile two others. In His blood Christ was reconciling man and God. But it was done in His blood once for all.
Do you consider that you are noy yet reconciled to God, that Jesus is still working on that?

 

[Johann]

I told you exactly where the evidence was the lexicons and the contexts of the words. Are you saying you don't care how the Greek defines the words or what the context tells? I apologize if I am misunderstanding your post.
As for your example two things - with your uncle, once the mediator brings them to an agreement, the mediator is done/ Job finished.
Christ mediated in his blood, once for all. Would you be comforatable saying that our agreement with God has not been fully mediated, and our inheritance is not really set yet?

As you have rightly said-"Aorist-once for all and not ongoing"

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

ὃν προέθετο ὁ Θεὸς ἱλαστήριον διὰ [τῆς] πίστεως ἐν τῷ αὐτοῦ αἵματι, εἰς ἔνδειξιν τῆς δικαιοσύνης αὐτοῦ διὰ τὴν πάρεσιν τῶν προγεγονότων ἁμαρτημάτων ἐν τῇ ἀνοχῇ τοῦ Θεοῦ,

προέθετο
Transliteration: proetheto
Morphology: V-AIM-3S
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G4388 (προτίθημι)
Meaning: To purpose, design beforehand, determine.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


ἱλασμός
hilasmos
G2434
N-NMS
[the] propitiation--however, here, it is in the

ἐστιν
Transliteration: estin
Morphology: V-PIA-3S
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G1510 (εἰμί)
Meaning: To be, exist.
1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

ἀπέστειλεν
Transliteration: apesteilen
Morphology: V-AIA-3S
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G649 (ἀποστέλλω, ἐμπέμπω)
Meaning: To send forth, send (as a messenger, commission, etc.), send away, dismis

His Son to be the propitiation - There is no verb "to be" so this literally reads "His Son propitiation." In chapter 2 John said of Jesus "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins." In other words Jesus was not sent to be just the "propitiator," who offered the sacrifice as did the OT priests, but that He Himself BE the actual propitiation.

In sum, Christ Jesus is both the propitiator and the propitiation for our sin. As Dwight Pentecost said "The death of Jesus Christ did not change the heart of God, as if One who hated us now loves us, rather it opened the floodgate so that the love of God for sinners could be poured out to them through Jesus Christ."

Shalom
Johann

 

[civic]

That is such demonic logic with no Scriptural backing, making a brazenly misleading claim... these verses clearly show either the Bible is pagan Greek philosophy, or your statement is a flat out lie from hell:

26 And David built there an altar to the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called on the LORD; and He answered him from heaven by fire on the altar of burnt offering.
27 So the LORD commanded the angel, and he returned his sword to its sheath.
28 At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he sacrificed there.
29 For the tabernacle of the LORD and the altar of the burnt offering, which Moses had made in the wilderness, were at that time at the high place in Gibeon.
30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the LORD. (1 Chr. 21:26-30 NKJ)

Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them. (Ps. 106:23 NKJ)

Why should the Egyptians speak, and say,`He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth '? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. (Exod. 32:12 NKJ)

30 "So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one.
31 "Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD. (Ezek. 22:30-31 NKJ)

46 So Moses said to Aaron, "Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense on it, and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun."
47 Then Aaron took it as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the assembly; and already the plague had begun among the people. So he put in the incense and made atonement for the people.
48 And he stood between the dead and the living; so the plague was stopped. (Num. 16:46-48 NKJ)

Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal. (Num. 25:11 NKJ)

Nevertheless the LORD did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him. (2 Ki. 23:26 NKJ)

When he humbled himself, the wrath of the LORD turned from him, so as not to destroy him completely; and things also went well in Judah. (2 Chr. 12:12 NKJ)

Now it is in my heart to make a covenant with the LORD God of Israel, that His fierce wrath may turn away from us. (2 Chr. 29:10 NKJ)

"Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you. (2 Chr. 30:8 NKJ)

Please, let the leaders of our entire assembly stand; and let all those in our cities who have taken pagan wives come at appointed times, together with the elders and judges of their cities, until the fierce wrath of our God is turned away from us in this matter." (Ezr. 10:14 NKJ)

But He, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, And did not destroy them. Yes, many a time He turned His anger away, And did not stir up all His wrath; (Ps. 78:38 NKJ) You have taken away all Your wrath; You have turned from the fierceness of Your anger. (Ps. 85:3 NKJ) Shall evil be repaid for good? For they have dug a pit for my life. Remember that I stood before You To speak good for them, To turn away Your wrath from them. (Jer. 18:20 NKJ)

.......

You think God likes to kill animals just for fun as some kind of moral lesson?

Do you think transferring sins to guilt offerings with laying on of hands is just to show God has cheap forgiveness that cost him nothing, devalues the seriousness of evil, and violates his justice?

Do you think the day of atonement and the slaughter and burning up of the sacrifice on the altar, and the sprinkling of blood on the literal holiest of holy places, has no meaning of the need for something to die and suffer and be punished for sins?

And the entire book of Hebrews saying it all was a picture of Christ is all just a silly waste, and the Passover Blood protecting the people from the angel of death because something had to die in their place?

Under the guise of a cheap love that denigrates Christ's suffering, is one of the blackest, most vile wicked lies full of blasphemy and abomination, the very first lie Satan ever said, "You shall not surely die for your sin... God can just skip all that punishment stuff."

We are discussing Appeasement, Wrath, which means : Anger, Retribution. Vengeance from the Father to the Son which is ABSENT in Scripture and " assumed " by PSA. If anything is evil it pitting the Father against the Son with wrath. The topic is the Trinity/ Tri-Unity of God- His Innate attributes which is LOVE, not wrath- wrath has to do with the fall and creation. Those are not Gods primary attributes, they are His in relation to the fall with mankind.

So let me know when know when you are willing to stay on Topic with the character and nature of God as Triune. As it stands you have hate, wrath, vengeance, retribution, anger in the Trinity.

And all the ad hominem attacks on me are duly noted.

I won't edit them or report them either. You are free to express your opinions. Just be careful about slandering someone and calling them evil. @Administrator

See below for a thorough refutation in great detail with your post.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-nature-of-god-in-the-atonement.30/

hope this helps !!!

 

[Redeemed]

What are you saying here brother?

Seriously, today is my first day and I was hoping to be around some fun-loving Christians. We should be making a Joyful Noise not murmuring and complaining. This is the day that the Lord has made I will rejoice and be glad in it. God loves me!!!

 

[Aeliana]

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:36

 

[civic]

Seriously, today is my first day and I was hoping to be around some fun-loving Christians. We should be making a Joyful Noise not murmuring and complaining. This is the day that the Lord has made I will rejoice and be glad in it. God loves me!!!

I'm trying not to complain

 

[civic]

agreed, one time negotiation is not common for earthly courts, but whether it was once for all in His blood in Heaven, or the earthly ongoing type of mediation. it still has a meaning in the earthly and heavenly courts,One person works to reconcile two others. In His blood Christ was reconciling man and God. But it was done in His blood once for all.
Do you consider that you are noy yet reconciled to God, that Jesus is still working on that?

Maybe we can start a thread on prophet, priest, king, mediator- the offices of Christ. What do you you think ?

 

[sethproton]

Maybe we can start a thread on prophet, priest, king, mediator- the offices of Christ. What do you you think ?

i would rather have some of my specific points addessed word meangings and contexts, if we went to what you suggest, mediator will be swept under the carpet

 

[civic]

i would rather have some of my specific points addessed word meangings and contexts, if we went to what you suggest, mediator will be swept under the carpet

ok no worries.

 

[civic]

ok no worries.

So when scripture says He is the Mediator it should be He was the Mediator right ?

 

[sethproton]

So when scripture says He is the Mediator it should be He was the Mediator right ?

thanks, lust like when we say some lady is the architect of a building.