A question just to start things off.

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The question is frequently asked today: “What is the core of what one must believe in order to be a Christian?” As an answer, the atonement is not the only thing we must believe in order to be saved, but it is certainly among the necessary truths for Christian salvation.

The apostle John expressed his understanding of the essential Christian confession toward the end of his Gospel: “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). To receive eternal life, we must believe that Jesus is the Christ (the Greek word for the Hebrew Messiah)—we might give the word Savior as an equivalent—and that he is the Son of God.

Where, we may ask, is the atonement? The answer is that as soon as we unpack the confession of Jesus as our Christ, or Savior, we find ourselves at the atonement. For the questions must be asked: “Who is Jesus the Christ and Savior?” and “What did the Christ do to save us?” The answers take us directly to the cross and Christ’s atoning work. Richard D. Phillips

What are the various theories on the atonement?​

 
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Administrator said:
The question is frequently asked today: “What is the core of what one must believe in order to be a Christian?” As an answer, the atonement is not the only thing we must believe in order to be saved, but it is certainly among the necessary truths for Christian salvation.

The apostle John expressed his understanding of the essential Christian confession toward the end of his Gospel: “these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). To receive eternal life, we must believe that Jesus is the Christ (the Greek word for the Hebrew Messiah)—we might give the word Savior as an equivalent—and that he is the Son of God.

Where, we may ask, is the atonement? The answer is that as soon as we unpack the confession of Jesus as our Christ, or Savior, we find ourselves at the atonement. For the questions must be asked: “How is Jesus the Christ and Savior?” and “What did the Christ do to save us?” The answers take us directly to the cross and Christ’s atoning work. Richard D. Phillips

What are the various theories on the atonement?​

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The atonement can be grasped and applied and believed in the simplest of ways, and is in the beginning for most if not all. What I have come to refer to as the milk of the atonement. "Jesus paid for my sins on the cross!" And then, hopefully we begin to learn more about it as we grow, God causing the growth as we delve into His word.

What has happened in my case, (and I say that because I realize we all walk this journey in Christ differently. We are each a different person from all other persons) is what I call looking into the atonement, and finding there God Himself. I know no other way to say it. His manifold wisdom is on full display; His multifaceted glory and perfection, power and gentleness, love, mercy; the Godness of God, unfolds like a kaleidoscope of unending depth and glory.

It is like seeing the atonement from God's perspective in a way and as much as we can from what He has told us.

It begins and ends with who God is and secondly who we are and the relation to and relationship with Him that was intended. It is how far we have truly fallen and how great a transgression it is. What love and mercy are in Him to rescue us!

It is about our hopelessness and helplessness to ever get ourselves out of the mire, bound in chains of sin, imprisoned in a kingdom of darkness far from the Light. Prisoners we are. Wounded and wounding. Held captive by our sins.

When we think of how very far God stooped to even care about us, let alone send one to rescue us, to make atonement for us, it is astonishing. His glory and power and love and mercy and perfection----ah the perfection of it all!---is on full display. He comes Himself, sending the Son, who takes on the very clothing we wear, one of us, a man. He lives among us in the world of darkness, feeling what we feel, suffering what we suffer, yet never once betraying the Father but living in perfect obedience, fulfilling His mission.

This Jesus, the promised Messiah, the Suffering Servant, perfect in all His ways, was obedient even unto death on the cross. Substituting His righteousness for the unrighteousness of the many, facing the penalty for sin which is death for them. In Him, on that cross, their sins met the just penalty of a just God. In Him their sins were atoned for.

Because there was no actual sin in Him death could not hold Him and He rose again to life, and ascended back to the Father, crowned King, appointed as our High Priest forever. And in Him, through faith in His person and work, He defeated forever the power of sin to condemn the believer, and He defeated the power of death to hold them. We too will be resurrected to be with Him forever. There is no other way. It is the most perfect way.
 
I agree the atonement is at the heart of the meaning of the Gospel!

And sadly being attacked on every side and watered down into something feel-good and meaningless.

Jesus suffered the punishment for our sins to give us his perfect righteousness is being changed into:

"Jesus died to be a good person and inspire us to be good like him."
 
dizerner said:
I agree the atonement is at the heart of the meaning of the Gospel!

And sadly being attacked on every side and watered down into something feel-good and meaningless.

Jesus suffered the punishment for our sins to give us his perfect righteousness is being changed into:

"Jesus died to be a good person and inspire us to be good like him."
Click to expand...
The question is not His punishment everyone agrees . The question is by whom was it done by ?

Scripture clearly placed that blame on man, not God.
How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15

4- Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up again. John 2:19

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34

Who was responsible for His death by torture snd punishment , wrath ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath,vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.


hope this helps !!
 
Man is not the Holy Judge of All the Earth before whom all justice must be met!

Let's stop being man-centered and putting man in the place of Judge and Almighty God!
 
Plus in Isaiah 53 where PSA forms its doctrine from , it’s also a prophecy looking forward a 1000 years in advance . So how does the NT fulfilling of that prophecy look back and what did the Apostles say about Isaiah 53 ?

Nothing penal is mentioned in the NT about the atonement . That alone should make anyone think twice about what they have been told and taught it means .

There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God.

The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

Notice above not once does any NT writer mention Isaiah 53:10the one verse PSA is based upon.

PSA entire theology is based from a solitary verse ripped away from the rest of scripture and in isolation .

I will let the renown Calvinist Dr Barnes speak on the passage.

To bruise him - (See the notes at Isaiah 53:5). The word here is the infinitive of Piel. 'To bruise him, or his being bruised, was pleasing to Yahweh;' that is, it was acceptable to him that he should be crushed by his many sorrows. It does not of necessity imply that there was any positive and direct agency on the part of Yahweh in bruising him, but only that the fact of his being thus crushed and bruised was acceptable to him

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.
Click to expand...

Sez you. :)

The ironic part of this is that you give all the arguments for PSA in your first 10 points and the first scripture.

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
 
PapaLandShark said:
Sez you. :)

The ironic part of this is that you give all the arguments for PSA in your first 10 points and the first scripture.

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Click to expand...
Yes but they killed Him , not the Father. I’ll quote several Calvinist theologians tonight who say it’s the Father who killed Him .
 
The Father didn't kill him physically (anymore than God is in charge of all death), the Father was pleased to lay on him the iniquity of us all.

the punishment that brought us peace was on him (Isa. 53:5 NIV)
 
By the way, nice forum, definitely better than the other!

Feels just like Carm!

Too bad you can't just migrate all threads.
 
Administrator said:
The question is frequently asked today: “What is the core of what one must believe in order to be a Christian?” As an answer, the atonement is not the only thing we must believe in order to be saved, but it is certainly among the necessary truths for Christian salvation.
Click to expand...
It would seem to me, that the atonement is the means of God to make possible the reconciliation of God and man. There are many parts and people involved in this and therefore, it is very important that we have a correct understanding of all the elements within the process of completing the Atonement.

Thus, I think that we must understand:
  • the nature of sin,
  • human guilt,
  • God’s righteousness
  • The person of Christ including his Deity, nature, and purpose
  • Finally the elements of the process such as faith, repentance, and the actions of the Spirit.
This is not the whole of things, but at the very least, these must be understood to rightly grasp the meaning of the atonement.

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
It would seem to me, that the atonement is the means of God to make possible the reconciliation of God and man. There are many parts and people involved in this and therefore, it is very important that we have a correct understanding of all the elements within the process of completing the Atonement.

Thus, I think that we must understand:
  • the nature of sin,
  • human guilt,
  • God’s righteousness
  • The person of Christ including his Deity, nature, and purpose
  • Finally the elements of the process such as faith, repentance, and the actions of the Spirit.
This is not the whole of things, but at the very least, these must be understood to rightly grasp the meaning of the atonement.

Doug
Click to expand...

And what Christ accomplished through the Cross right?

We have union and expiation.

That is central to his Person.
 
civic said:
Yes but they killed Him , not the Father. I’ll quote several Calvinist theologians tonight who say it’s the Father who killed Him .
Click to expand...
Irrelevant my friend. This was the plan of God from before the foundation of the world. God also uses humans as the means to proclaim His Gospel. Odd but true. He could do so by Angels standing in the center of the sun....but no. He chose humans for the task He decreed.
 
PapaLandShark said:
Sez you. :)

The ironic part of this is that you give all the arguments for PSA in your first 10 points and the first scripture.

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Click to expand...
Yes but they killed Him , not the Father. I’ll quote several Calvinists after Mens discipleship this morning who say it’s the Father who killed Him
 
civic said:
Yes but they killed Him , not the Father. I’ll quote several Calvinists after Mens discipleship this morning who say it’s the Father who killed Him
Click to expand...

In the end, it was our sin that killed him in a manner of speaking.

Just because the Father enacts the penalty of justice on our behalf upon Christ to bear our sins does not mean:

1. God doesn't love Jesus.
2. God just wants to hurt people.
3. God is a big ole meanie who liked killing Jesus.
4. The Father and Jesus were at odds with each other.

All these and most of what you keep bringing up are what they call "big old fat straw man."

Now some clever debaters have started employing the term "steel man" your opponent, give the best argument in the best light.

I never see you or many detractors really "steel man" a legitimate penal substitution, it's all emotive floundering.

We know the Father:

1. Planned Jesus' death.
2. Orchestrated the circumstances Jesus' death.
3. Deliberately sent Jesus for the purpose of dying.

Now you take that in a any court of law and say, "But the person who planned, orchestrated, and deliberately sent the victim to their death, as not a murderer, your honor! He didn't really kill him, only the people who actually pulled the proverbial trigger."

If I send you into a lion's den, I can't blame the lion for killing you and say I'm completely innocent.

If I set you up to take a wrong turn and end up in a back alley full of thugs, I can't say only the thugs really killed you.

You would just be going into denial at that point, and even the Bible backs up using other killers as a secondary means as merely using an instrument to kill someone: God told King David that he had Uriah murdered "by the sword of the Ammonites."

Now, according to your spectacular logic here, King David didn't really murder Uriah, after all, it was just the big mean old Ammonites that King David planned, orchestrated, and deliberately sent Uriah into.

That's not a straw man—that's an exact correlation.

And now you have another problem—Jesus himself said he came to die. Neither of us think Jesus was committing suicide here, so why did Jesus deliberately say it was for this very purpose he came.

Jesus did not say "Well, it turned out kinda bad, and some bad people are gonna do some bad things cause this is a bad place."

No.

Jesus said he came for this very purpose because the Father commanded him to come exactly for this purpose.

The silly overly-emotional, soulish, poorly reasoned arguments against penal substitution are easily seen to be shallow caricatures of anything real.

There is real sense in which we can say all the following:

1. The Father killed Jesus.
2. Jesus killed himself.
3. The soldiers killed Jesus.
4. The Pharisees killed Jesus.
5. All of Israel killed Jesus.
6. Caesar himself killed Jesus.
7. Our sin killed Jesus.
8. The Triune love of God killed Jesus.

It's just a fact of holiness and justice that sin must be punished.

Let's not let the devil steal the seed of the Word from our heart!
 
Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
(Jn. 10:17-18 NKJ)

According to Jesus here, one took his life from him, not even the "bad guys."
 
civic said:
Yes but they killed Him , not the Father. I’ll quote several Calvinists after Mens discipleship this morning who say it’s the Father who killed Him
Click to expand...

Ok...one more time and I'm done with this argument. :)

Irrelevant my friend. This was the plan of God from before the foundation of the world. God also uses humans as the means to proclaim His Gospel. Odd but true. He could do so by Angels standing in the center of the sun....but no. He chose humans for the task He decreed.

So all you really can say is "both".
 

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