Johann
Well-known member
Don't fret brother-I concur-or sun-occur with you.
Johann.
A question just to start things off.
- Thread starter Administrator
- Start date
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
I don't really care what anyone believes about the atonement that is up to them and God. I'm against the unbiblical teaching on PSA as taught and understood by the reformers. There is no anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution from the Father to the Son with the Atonement.
I presented all the passages Jesus taught about His own death an PSA is not one of them He mentioned or even hinted at. He is the Savior and the One who made the Atonement and He should know what it meant and why He died. And He never mentioned the Fathers wrath was upon Him or the Father was angry ( wrath means anger ). The Father/Son relationship is 100% loving, good, holy, perfect, benevolent etc......
Jesus not once said He was being punished by God but several time He said He was being killed, punished, persecuted, tortured etc.... by the Jewish leaders who hated Him , were angry with Him, not the Father.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
That is one facet of the multi-facets/attributes of the unsearchable God @Administrator and we dare not take a part of the whole and build our own doctrines on it.
WE do not choose God.
Shalom
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
Yet we read God is love. It is a primary attribute of who and what God is at His core as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Why do you think love is the greatest in 1 Cor 13 ?
Why is to love God and you neighbor the greatest 2 commandments and fulfills all the law ?
Why ? because its who God is at His core and is how we reflect God to the world.
civic
Well-known member
I addressed all the above in my thesis paper. And i used every N.T, quotation of Isaiah 53 in the paper. Not once are any of the wrath associated with Isaiah 53 ever mentioned in the N.T.
Also Isaiah says: WE ( not God ) considered Him smitten by God.
Very similar to what Job and his friends thought it was God doing the punishment when all along it was satan. It was God who blessed Job for being faithful. In the same was it was the Jews who punished Jesus not God.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
But not His wrath? As written in Scriptures? WE "pass over" those sections and take a dogmatic stance?
You want to put YHVH in a box-since we all have only a 3 pound brain?
civic
Well-known member
There is no wrath from Father to Son in the N.T.
Johann
Well-known member
But there is wrath from the Father to human beings-correct?
civic
Well-known member
Yes Gods wrath always falls upon the rebrobate, unrightoues, wicked, unholy, rebellious etc..... it never falls on the righteous, holy, sinless, obedient ones.
civic
Well-known member
The justice/ punishment idea came out of the reformation period, it did not exist prior which is why expiation is preferred over propitiation. I bring this out in my paper
civic
Well-known member
I’ve been studying this topic diligently for the past 5 years.
Johann
Well-known member
Good to know-today is day 1 for me-with regular power outs 2-4 hours daily here-and since this is the core doctrine of Scripture I have a lot of catching up to do, And what I appreciate from Owen is the NUMEROUS Scripture references and as far as I can tell, Owen was never refuted on this debate and his book.I’ve been studying this topic diligently for the past 5 years.
I made the assumption you were aware of him-or heard of him-or read his book?
Personally-and this is just my opinion-I think it is a big mistake to dismiss anything re the writings of the Church fathers and rabbinical writings-especially on atonement.
But so far so good on this Forum-much better than all the others.
Shalom
J.
civic
Well-known member
Dismissing and disagreeing are two entirely different thingsGood to know-today is day 1 for me-with regular power outs 2-4 hours daily here-and since this is the core doctrine of Scripture I have a lot of catching up to do, And what I appreciate from Owen is the NUMEROUS Scripture references and as far as I can tell, Owen was never refuted on this debate and his book.
I made the assumption you were aware of him-or heard of him-or read his book?
Personally-and this is just my opinion-I think it is a big mistake to dismiss anything re the writings of the Church fathers and rabbinical writings-especially on atonement.
But so far so good on this Forum-much better than all the others.
Shalom
J.
101G
Well-known member
Addressing the OP only, and not having read all the post, good topic.
if one will, may we add this to the "ATONEMENT" of God in Belief, and FAITH. we as Christian "BELIEVE" in the ATONEMENT of God by the Lord Jesus. but is that the END since we BELIEVE.? so where is our FAITH in all of this, the TRUST we have in God since we believe? scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."
not saying anyone is right or wrong, but consider this, our "ATONEMENT" or recompence of God for our sins and our SALVATION which is a two-step process in one. what do 101G means. scripture, Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
this last verse here carries an important doctrine of the NEW TESTAMENT readers. our redemption to God is in the Lord Jesus, who is our "ATONEMENT"/recompence/the propitiation, NOTICE, "for the remission of our sins that are PAST". but what about the sins of the future, IN Christ Jesus? for the Lord Jesus is our substitute, or propitiation for the remission of sins that are past, Good. for when one, (a sinner) comes to God, he or she do not confess their sins in order to be saved... no, the only requirement is to confess the Lord Jesus, God Holy Son all our past sins are blotted out. but what about when one is in Christ and sins. scripture, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." so what is the remedy for future sins? answer, next verse. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
this is why we have an "advocate". the very next chapter. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
and this reveals the second step, "FAITH", we trust God in our salvation, that if, if, if, we sin, or not. for the idea is not to sin in the first place.... but as the apostle Peter said, 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" 1 Peter 2:3 "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." this is where some fail at in saying Ooop's you sin so you can lose your salvation. no, ERROR. for 1. we're in a binding contract/Covenant that cannot be broken, either by God or Man, this is why it is "BINDING" neither party can break the contract. the old one man did break, but not here in the NEW COVENANT.... (Talking about GOOD NEWS). this binding contract (the NEW TESTAMENT), we have with God, was clearly stated in the OT. again, Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Genesis 49:11 "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:"
did one get the revelation. the Lord Jesus Road into Jerusalem on a Colt ***. there are two types of believers. the ***, or herself, (ISRAEL who was under the OLD LAW AND COVENANT), and now believe in the New Covenant. and there the ***'s colt, the younger/newer, (the Church, BELIEVERS under the NEW COVENANT, AND GRACE). as the VINE, the LORD JESUS is the "CHOICE" Vine... meaning we have a Choice to believe and accept him or.... NOT. John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
this is where the COMFORTER comes in at, the Lord Jesus, God, again. The abiding of the Holy Spirit
this abiding is where FAITH comes in at. ....and the promise is kept since you believe. Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" PLEASE READ THIS LAST VERSE AGAIN
for by FAITH/OR TRUST in the Lord that we "HOPE" and are saved. because no one is SAVE RIGHT NOW, but have the PROMISE OF SALVATION. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." why? what is this HOPE? we have a promise, when he returns, he will reward us. why HOPE? as said, and now understood. what is it..... Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." FAITH is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation, and we should live by for it. as the apostle by the Holy Spirit said, Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: (we have not been changed yet, hence we wait for the resurrection), for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." and when we LIVE in FAITH it fulfills this, the OLD TESTAMEBT PROMISE BY GOD.
Isaiah 25:6 "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."
Isaiah 25:7 "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT AGAIN)
Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."
Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."
so, KNOWING that we who is of the TRUTH in Christ.... we have a BINDING COVENANT that cannot be broken, and by "FAITH" we live in this HOPE. this is the HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE of the TRUE BELIEVER, which the devil wants concealed.
KNOW YOUR BIBLE... THE "TERUE" WORD OF GODS... AMEN.
101G.
if one will, may we add this to the "ATONEMENT" of God in Belief, and FAITH. we as Christian "BELIEVE" in the ATONEMENT of God by the Lord Jesus. but is that the END since we BELIEVE.? so where is our FAITH in all of this, the TRUST we have in God since we believe? scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."
not saying anyone is right or wrong, but consider this, our "ATONEMENT" or recompence of God for our sins and our SALVATION which is a two-step process in one. what do 101G means. scripture, Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
this last verse here carries an important doctrine of the NEW TESTAMENT readers. our redemption to God is in the Lord Jesus, who is our "ATONEMENT"/recompence/the propitiation, NOTICE, "for the remission of our sins that are PAST". but what about the sins of the future, IN Christ Jesus? for the Lord Jesus is our substitute, or propitiation for the remission of sins that are past, Good. for when one, (a sinner) comes to God, he or she do not confess their sins in order to be saved... no, the only requirement is to confess the Lord Jesus, God Holy Son all our past sins are blotted out. but what about when one is in Christ and sins. scripture, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." so what is the remedy for future sins? answer, next verse. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
this is why we have an "advocate". the very next chapter. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
and this reveals the second step, "FAITH", we trust God in our salvation, that if, if, if, we sin, or not. for the idea is not to sin in the first place.... but as the apostle Peter said, 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" 1 Peter 2:3 "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." this is where some fail at in saying Ooop's you sin so you can lose your salvation. no, ERROR. for 1. we're in a binding contract/Covenant that cannot be broken, either by God or Man, this is why it is "BINDING" neither party can break the contract. the old one man did break, but not here in the NEW COVENANT.... (Talking about GOOD NEWS). this binding contract (the NEW TESTAMENT), we have with God, was clearly stated in the OT. again, Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." Genesis 49:11 "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ***'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:"
did one get the revelation. the Lord Jesus Road into Jerusalem on a Colt ***. there are two types of believers. the ***, or herself, (ISRAEL who was under the OLD LAW AND COVENANT), and now believe in the New Covenant. and there the ***'s colt, the younger/newer, (the Church, BELIEVERS under the NEW COVENANT, AND GRACE). as the VINE, the LORD JESUS is the "CHOICE" Vine... meaning we have a Choice to believe and accept him or.... NOT. John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
this is where the COMFORTER comes in at, the Lord Jesus, God, again. The abiding of the Holy Spirit
this abiding is where FAITH comes in at. ....and the promise is kept since you believe. Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" PLEASE READ THIS LAST VERSE AGAIN
for by FAITH/OR TRUST in the Lord that we "HOPE" and are saved. because no one is SAVE RIGHT NOW, but have the PROMISE OF SALVATION. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." why? what is this HOPE? we have a promise, when he returns, he will reward us. why HOPE? as said, and now understood. what is it..... Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." FAITH is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation, and we should live by for it. as the apostle by the Holy Spirit said, Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: (we have not been changed yet, hence we wait for the resurrection), for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." and when we LIVE in FAITH it fulfills this, the OLD TESTAMEBT PROMISE BY GOD.
Isaiah 25:6 "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."
Isaiah 25:7 "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT AGAIN)
Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it."
Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."
so, KNOWING that we who is of the TRUTH in Christ.... we have a BINDING COVENANT that cannot be broken, and by "FAITH" we live in this HOPE. this is the HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE of the TRUE BELIEVER, which the devil wants concealed.
KNOW YOUR BIBLE... THE "TERUE" WORD OF GODS... AMEN.
101G.
civic
Well-known member
Good points @TibiasDad
Can a person be reconciled if they do not believe those points that you outlined or does not understand them?
Diserner
Well-known member
I think they must accept the most bare bones ideas behind them at the very least.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
God is the judge of the heart, and what understanding or misunderstanding they may have at the point of responding to the gospel is not necessarily a factor, in my humble opinion, but I would think that the acknowledgment of our sin and sinfulness and repentance of such is absolutely necessary.
Doug
That is also the way I think about it tibiasdad.
