A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation

No. Scripture teaches that Jesus is a human and that God is not a human.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
John 1:1–3 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

Colossians 2:9 (LEB) — 9 because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,
 
No. Scripture teaches that Jesus is a human and that God is not a human.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Um the incarnation did not occur until after the time of those verses

The Word (the second person) was with God from the beginning and was God

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He did not exist in the form of a man at that time.
 
John 1:1–3 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

Colossians 2:9 (LEB) — 9 because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,
I'm also quoting these verses to prove Jesus isn't God.

For starters, John 1:1-3 proves the Word isn't the Creator nor does it identify the Word as Jesus.

Next, John 1:18 in the version you use contains a contradiction. If Jesus is God and no one has seen Him then no one has seen Jesus. The Bible says many saw Jesus.

John 20:28 doesn't have Thomas addressing Jesus as God, but rather making a statement.

Romans 9:5 in the KJV and other versions contains punctuation that proves Jesus isn't God.

Titus 2:13 in the KJV and other versions don't contain the grammatical structure the English translation you used.

Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where it is talking about a human king with a human queen. Many theologians agree that the king in Psalm 45 is Solomon and Solomon isn't God. The context removes all doubt; compared Psalm 45:7 to Hebrews 1:9 which proves that this is talking about a human who was exalted by his God.

2 Peter 1:1 doesn't equate Jesus with God in the context.

1 John 5:20 refers to the Father as the true God in the context.

Philippians 2:6 proves Jesus isn't equal with God in other translations.

Colossians 2:9 says the same thing about Jesus that Ephesians 3:19 says about true believers.

I believe we have been here before and it went round and round and round and round for months posting arguments that only seemed to cement both of even more firmly into our beliefs.

So why can't you Jesus find anything that explicitly identifies Jesus as God, as having incarnated, as having pre-existed, etc?
 
Um the incarnation did not occur until after the time of those verses

The Word (the second person) was with God from the beginning and was God

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He did not exist in the form of a man at that time.
1 John 1:1-3 says the Word is a thing and there are no examples of the Word being God in the Old Testament. Do you agree with that?
 
1 John 1:1-3 says the Word is a thing and there are no examples of the Word being God in the Old Testament. Do you agree with that?
1 John 1:1-3 doesn't say the Word is a thing. And there are examples of the Word being God in the Old Testament if you understand what John said about the Word in John 1.
 
1 John 1:1-3 doesn't say the Word is a thing. And there are examples of the Word being God in the Old Testament if you understand what John said about the Word in John 1.
Yes 1 john 1:1-3 says the Word is a thing. Let me post it here. It's in every Bible version.

Observe the Word is called clearly called a thing (a that, which, this, it) and not a he, who, him, his, etc.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
 
John 1:1–3 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

Colossians 2:9 (LEB) — 9 because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,
to deny the above is to admit one is not saved. for there is no other name by which a man must be saved. He alone is the Savior of the world and we know YHWH said He alone is the Savior/Redeemer in Isaiah.
 
to deny the above is to admit one is not saved. for there is no other name by which a man must be saved. He alone is the Savior of the world and we know YHWH said He alone is the Savior/Redeemer in Isaiah.
This is about yours and Tom's salvation. As much as I like both of you, I spend the time here talking to you two because I care. I don't want idolatry to be the thing that makes you lose it all at your coming judgements when it is something entirely pardonable and able to be repented for. So why do you not believe the Father is the only true God as the Bible clearly states? You know which verses I'm talking about.
 
This is about yours and Tom's salvation. As much as I like both of you, I spend the time here talking to you two because I care. I don't want idolatry to be the thing that makes you lose it all at your coming judgements when it is something entirely pardonable and able to be repented for. So why do you not believe the Father is the only true God as the Bible clearly states? You know which verses I'm talking about.
denying Jesus is God is idolatry.
 
Yes 1 john 1:1-3 says the Word is a thing. Let me post it here. It's in every Bible version.

Observe the Word is called clearly called a thing (a that, which, this, it) and not a he, who, him, his, etc.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
In 1 John 1, John is relating his own experience with Jesus when Jesus was alive in the flesh and blood of a man. The Word of 1 John was Spirit and not seeable nor touchable.

I disagree with translations that capitalize word in 1 John 1. The life in 1 John 2 that was revealed, seen and testified to was the human being Jesus that the Word took on.
 
1 John 1:1-3 doesn't say the Word is a thing. And there are examples of the Word being God in the Old Testament if you understand what John said about the Word in John 1.
You know @Jim ... it seems to me that they would jump on anything they could use to knock who Jesus is and was back in that day.

I am so tired of hearing them say the Word is not a person , which of course they would say the same for logos, or if another
one was used like maybe the Speech, The Talk, The Mouth or anything that gets across that utterances came from this person.

This persons name does/did not have to be a name.....

Most of the objectors here, I think, are younger then you or I but I wonder if they know or ever hear of Peekaboo Street and how she made her mark in sports? How about "The boss". One I am certain they never heard of was from the very old TV show called Amos and Andy... And the one they called The Kingfish.

It, to me , is just idiotic to think that anyone would say that Jesus could not have been the Word because Word is not the name of a person sheesh.

Anyway... Got Questions says this.

By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation. And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.

So, essentially, what John is doing by introducing Jesus as the Logos is drawing upon a familiar word and concept that both Jews and Gentiles of his day would have been familiar with and using that as the starting point from which he introduces them to Jesus Christ. But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had and presents Jesus Christ not as a mere mediating principle like the Greeks perceived, but as a personal being, fully divine, yet fully human. Also, Christ was not simply a personification of God’s revelation as the Jews thought, but was indeed God’s perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh, so much so that John would record Jesus’ own words to Philip: Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:9). By using the term Logos or Word in John 1:1, John is amplifying and applying a concept with which his audience was familiar and using that to introduce his readers to the true Logos of God in Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God, fully God and yet fully man, who came to reveal God to man and redeem all who believe in Him from their sin.
 
The problem is that we do not have experiential knowledge and understanding of the spirit or the spirit world. We do not really understand or comprehend much about our own spirit. But we trust God that He has given us a spirit just as He has said. The difference between us and Jesus is that each one of us is a physical being to whom God has given a spirit, our spirit. Jesus on the other hand was God, the Word, the Spirit, who took on the physical being of a man (John 1:14; Heb 2:14). So, in a very real sense, it was not the physical being of a man which the Word took on that was God; but rather it was the Spirit, the Word, that took on the physical being that was God.

We are a body with a spirit. Jesus was a Spirit with a body. It is that Spirit that was God who took on a body for a little while (Heb 2:7-9).

It is not an accident that God uses the same word, pneuma, for spirit as He uses for breath, breeze, wind. One knows the wind, not so much by what it is, but rather by what it does; the same can be said for Spirit (John 3:8).

It was in the physical body of a man that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice by which the Spirit of Jesus, i.e., God, saves us.
Good post, makes a lot of sense. Very logical and understandable.
 
In 1 John 1, John is relating his own experience with Jesus when Jesus was alive in the flesh and blood of a man. The Word of 1 John was Spirit and not seeable nor touchable.

I disagree with translations that capitalize word in 1 John 1. The life in 1 John 2 that was revealed, seen and testified to was the human being Jesus that the Word took on.
Unlikely since John opens the book by saying "That which was from the beginning..." so beginning of what? If you mean to say, the "beginning" of Creation then God existed before the beginning and is eternal without beginning. Since you agree that Jesus is a flesh and blood man then we know that Jesus wasn't always a flesh and blood man, but rather pre-existed in your beliefs. By process of elimination, John could be talking about the "beginning" of Jesus' ministry which also doesn't help the trinity.
 
Then you don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour.
I believe in God and I also believe in Jesus Christ. These two beliefs aren't the same thing. Jesus said so.

John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.
 
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Unlikely since John opens the book by saying "That which was from the beginning..." so beginning of what? If you mean to say, the "beginning" of Creation then God existed before the beginning and is eternal without beginning. Since you agree that Jesus is a flesh and blood man then we know that Jesus wasn't always a flesh and blood man, but rather pre-existed in your beliefs. By process of elimination, John could be talking about the "beginning" of Jesus' ministry which also doesn't help the trinity.
The beginning here is the beginning of his own seeing and hearing Jesus. That was likely some time before he became one of the twelve. The whole first chapter is John's own testimony to the beginning of his apostleship.
 
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