Is it different with what I quote below Peterlag?
Do you accept that it speaks of Jesus' appearing as God and Savior?
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Your Views on The Trinity
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Do you accept that it speaks of Jesus' appearing as God and Savior?
Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Gatekeeper
Active Member
To deny that Jesus is the Christ is to deny the Father and the Son. Here we are confronting something of the mystery of the nature of God. I grant immediately that there is much that we cannot understand about God and the Trinity. We know there are three persons who eternally exist as one God. Our minds boggle when we try to understand fully what that means and to grasp how it works out in its implications.
You recall, in that profoundly significant passage that we call the Upper Room Discourse, when our Lord is gathered with His own, that He Himself reveals to us something of the wondrous relationship that has eternally existed between the Father and the Son. We know that in the beginning was God—God in three persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The supreme characteristic of God is that He loves: God is love.
We can see that the Father loved the Son, and it was always the Father's delight to take the fullness in Himself and, through the eternal Spirit, to give it to the Son. Love always gives, and God is forever giving. The Father gives of Himself to the Son. All that is in the Father is given to the Son through the Spirit. This is why Jesus said in the Upper Room Discourse, All that belongs to the Father is mine.
John 16:15 states, "All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you". This verse is part of Jesus' final instructions to His disciples, explaining that the Holy Spirit will take what is from Jesus, who has all that the Father has and reveal it to them. It highlights the unity between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit's role in guiding believers to truth after Jesus departs
But the Son also must love and give, for He too is God. This is where creation comes in, for John has told us, Through him "the Son" all things were made. Why? In order that all the fullness that is in Him, which the Father has given to Him, might be given to the whole creation, headed by man.
Paul says in, Colossians 1:16 that all things were created by and for Jesus Christ, including everything in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, such as thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. The verse emphasizes Jesus's role as the creator of all things and the ultimate purpose of creation, which is for Him.
He is the full expression of the Father, and the creation is to be the full expression of the Son. Everything that we see about us, the universe in all its wonder of complicated structure, is but an expression of the life of the Son.
You recall, in that profoundly significant passage that we call the Upper Room Discourse, when our Lord is gathered with His own, that He Himself reveals to us something of the wondrous relationship that has eternally existed between the Father and the Son. We know that in the beginning was God—God in three persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The supreme characteristic of God is that He loves: God is love.
We can see that the Father loved the Son, and it was always the Father's delight to take the fullness in Himself and, through the eternal Spirit, to give it to the Son. Love always gives, and God is forever giving. The Father gives of Himself to the Son. All that is in the Father is given to the Son through the Spirit. This is why Jesus said in the Upper Room Discourse, All that belongs to the Father is mine.
John 16:15 states, "All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you". This verse is part of Jesus' final instructions to His disciples, explaining that the Holy Spirit will take what is from Jesus, who has all that the Father has and reveal it to them. It highlights the unity between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit's role in guiding believers to truth after Jesus departs
But the Son also must love and give, for He too is God. This is where creation comes in, for John has told us, Through him "the Son" all things were made. Why? In order that all the fullness that is in Him, which the Father has given to Him, might be given to the whole creation, headed by man.
Paul says in, Colossians 1:16 that all things were created by and for Jesus Christ, including everything in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, such as thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. The verse emphasizes Jesus's role as the creator of all things and the ultimate purpose of creation, which is for Him.
He is the full expression of the Father, and the creation is to be the full expression of the Son. Everything that we see about us, the universe in all its wonder of complicated structure, is but an expression of the life of the Son.
Runningman
Active Member
I'm guessing you won't hear what Matthew 28:19 is about until after you know that Father and Son don't have the same names.
If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have the same singular name already, no name could be "given" to him.
Philippians 2
9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
Someone who comes in another's name is not that person. If they had the same singular name, Jesus would have said "I came in our name."
John 5
43I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him.
Runningman
Active Member
God and "the Son of man" are not the same being. God is sitting on the throne while the Son of man approaches Him. How could you possibly confuse the two? The Son of man received sovereignty and dominion that he didn't already possess, meaning he isn't God Almighty.
Daniel 7
9I beheld until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat; and his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head, as pure wool: his throne was a flame of fire, and his wheels burning fire.
13I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and he came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him.
Out of curiosity, do you hold to a preterist view or do you know that the second advent of Jesus hasn't happened yet?
Runningman
Active Member
No, I am a Biblical Unitarian. My belief is that the Father alone is God according to what John 17:1-3 explicitly states.
You already asked me about this, we talked about it, I already explained it. Hebrews 1:8,9quoted from Psalm 45. I am in agreement with most scholars on this who believe the one being referred to in Psalm 45 is king Solomon. I don't see any issue with referring to king Solomon as elohim since many humans are called such in the Bible. Solomon isn't God though. So it doesn't follow that deity is transferred to Jesus from Psalm 45 to Hebrews 1. Solomon is elohim in the kingly since because he was a judge and magistrate, that's the only thing that transfers to Jesus in this context.
Peterlag
Active Member
There is a problem when there's 25 different Bibles that list the verse different than other Bibles.
Peterlag
Active Member
Matthew 28:19 is a good example. Baptizing in the name of the father, son, and spirit is not taught or practiced anywhere in the book of Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. Nobody carried out such a request that Trinitarians say came from Jesus. So even if 1 John 5:7 and Matthew 28:19 were originally written by the Apostles. It still does not fit with the rest of the Bible because we are immersed in the spirit when we are born again. We get that spirit by confessing the Lord Jesus, and believing that God raised him from the dead. Thus we are immersed in his name.
civic
Active Member
One Throne with 2 one that throne
Revelation 22:3- There will no longer be any curse. The throne of God and the lamb will be in the city
One Throne with God and the Lamb on it.
Revelation 22:1- Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Now we see its the Son who Issaih saw sitting on the throne in all His Glory
The Throne in Isaiah worshipping the SON who is YHWH
Isaiah 6:1-7
I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
6Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
John 12:41-42
These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. We see that the Apostle John said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in Isaiah 6 for this was the one and only time Isaiah was in the presence of Yahweh.
In Romans 10:9-10, we see that Christians will confess that Jesus is Lord. The context through verse 13 clearly shows that Jesus is the Lord which all men must call on in order to be saved. Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point.Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (verse 13). If you read Joel 2:32 one can see that Paul quoted from this verse. When we look at the OT passage salvation comes to those who call on the name of YHWH ie...the Divine name of Israel for God. Paul declares it is Jesus upon whom we must call on in order to be saved.
In Philippians 2:9-11, we read that Jesus has a name that is above every name that at His name every knee should bow and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul bases his statements on Isaiah 45:23, where we read (By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear .In the context this is clearly YHWH speaking of Himself. He is the Lord who says there is no God apart from Me in verse 21.Paul does not hesitate in saying that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess Jesus is YHWH.
It is an indisputable fact that Paul said God bestowed the Name “Yahweh” on Jesus because in Philippians 2: 9-11 he was quoting Isaiah 45: 21-24.
This is what Yahweh told Isaiah:
“And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance, they will say of Me, ‘Only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him and all who were angry with Him shall be put to shame.”
Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning.
We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
This is getting waaaaaaaaaay to easy these days dismantling the uni arguments. I can relate to Paul.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.
civic
Active Member
continued:
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
1 Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid irreverent, empty chatter and the opposing arguments of so-called “knowledge,” / which some have professed and thus swerved away from the faith. Grace be with you all.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. / For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it very easily.
Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— / which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. / But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! ...
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1-3
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. / Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. / In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
Romans 16:17-18
Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. / For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. / For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” / And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
hope this helps !!!
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
1 Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid irreverent, empty chatter and the opposing arguments of so-called “knowledge,” / which some have professed and thus swerved away from the faith. Grace be with you all.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. / For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it very easily.
Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— / which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. / But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! ...
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1-3
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. / Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. / In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
Romans 16:17-18
Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. / For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. / For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” / And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
hope this helps !!!
In Acts 2:38 the "baptism: there is water immersion. It describes how and when one is immersed in the Spirit.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Seeing as 1 John 5:7 was quoted by a church father shortly after the death of the last apostle, John, it is clear that the Alexandrian codices you are referring to were corrupted. They were even introduced to the public by Westcott and Hort, two spiritualists who believed in the myths of Darwin! Now it depends on whether you believe the corrupted texts of Alexandria were actually the unadulterated word of God, and your sources weren't searching for proof that Jesus was not God, as you are also doing, or can see that William Tynsdale who died for his efforts had access to documents that could have been destroyed, thus making the corrupted texts only seeming to be the "oldest." My friend, Titus 2:13 proved it to me immediately when I first read it, but I'm not biased for a cause as you are. I thought we were both searching for the Truth. We agree that Jesus took away our sin from our nature and made us new creatures. Don't you know only God can do that in a person?
I remember when I sent a copy of the manuscript for my second book to my old pastor asking for a "forward" as by then he was world famous, and received word back from his friend who actually read it that my pastor was already known for his own beliefs and couldn't go against the beliefs he presented in his own published works. I was shocked. I thought everyone of my old denomination were like I was, seeking the Truth. I had even been one of the prophets he acknowledged during a service when I would receive a vision from the Lord and passed him a note of what I was seeing.
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charismaticlady
Active Member
It obviously couldn't be the baptism of fire seeing as the gift of the Holy Spirit (what the baptism of fire is about) is separate. Now are you saying you don't believe in water baptism either? I'm at least happy that you know the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not tongues, but the taking away of sin from our nature. The evidence of righteousness is proof of that. His gifts are secondary, but real, and part of the New Covenant which cannot be changed, no matter what false doctrines the Reformation church fathers created at its beginning.
Runningman
Active Member
John mentioned the baptism of fire then immediately after that mentioned burning the chaff with fire. Baptism of fire isn't something you want.
Matthew 3
11I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Peterlag
Active Member
Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law. There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.
In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.” There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established.
Peterlag
Active Member
In biblical research and in any other reasonable study. If we have 10 clear verses on a subject and 1 verse that does not fit with the other 10 verses on the same subject. We are not to disregard the 10 clear verses and hold on to the 1 verse and then say we have proof that the 1 verse is well documented. Baptizing in the name of the father, son, and spirit is not taught or practiced anywhere in the book of Acts or in any other part of the New Testament. Nobody carried out such a request that Trinitarians say came from Jesus. So even if 1 John 5:7 and Matthew 28:19 were originally written by the Apostles. It still does not fit with the rest of the Bible because we are immersed in the spirit when we are born again. We get that spirit by confessing the Lord Jesus, and believing that God raised him from the dead. Thus we are immersed in his name.
Peterlag
Active Member
Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible.
They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Gee, sounds just like you.
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