Your Views on The Trinity

[Jim]

@FreeInChrist @mikesw

I added Mike with you since he agreed with you.

As the Son, Jesus did not exist "before" he was conceived in Luke one's account, which is God's testimony to us when He begat His Son, Jesus Christ. Your understanding paves the way for Jesus being the eternal Son of God which is an impossibility, or words have no meaning. Your understanding makes Jesus less than God and destroys/denies his eternality. I have already went over this in details in the beginning of this thread or one similar to this one.

I ask you and Mike ~ "Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."

Another question: "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? Which is a main truth of being God of the holy scriptures. You have a serious hole in your understanding of the Godhead. Those who reject Jesus being God know this more than you do, and know they have you over a barrow. That's one reason why you can never prove them to be wrong in their doctrine (which they are) yet your dotrince truly gives them life to their corruption of the Godhead.

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise.

We can easily prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense. I have said this many time, but it is worth repeating:

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

This is a given, since God is a Spirit, that's who God IS! Genesis 1:1 is God period! Without any qualifications. God was not a Father in the sense of begetting a Son in the matter in which Jesus was begotten until Luke one's testimony. If so, prove it with scriptures. Who is the eternal mother of His Son? It is vain man talking without scriptural verses to support them.


Jesus was one with God in His deity in his Eternal Divine nature being in the bosom of God from everlasting as the Alpha and Omega of all things.

John 1:18​

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

The Word was with God, as far as his eternal Divine nature goes as being the One true God that inhabits eternity. The scriptures does not say the Son was with God, the ONE and True God is the Eternal Spirit that created all things who had a Son in time as we know time around two thousand years ago, per the testimony of God which we believe in.

He chose his people from before the foundation of the world and loved us in Christ, yet we too were born in time, and certainly are not eternal accept in God eternal purposes that He would do by creating.

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

The eternal Sonship position destroys Jesus' Deity as the One True God that created all thing which he was!

And all of God's children said: Amen, and Amen.

The Son was the Word that took on the flesh and blood of a human being. The Word was distinct from the Father. With all due respect you are assigning to the spiritual beings of the Father, Word and Holy Spirit inappropriate limitations that apply to physical beings. That is natural. We have no experiential understanding of spirits, and certainly not of the Spirits.

When the Word, the Spirit, took on the flesh and blood of a human being, the Spirit, the Word, did not cease to exist. Human beings have a spirit given them by God. Jesus had a spirit that was the Word. That Word was and is eternal.

 

[charismaticlady]

So I have caught you in a lie. You said "Peter said to not follow Jesus or be like Jesus."

Where did Peter say that? Don't think you will be released from this anytime soon. I will take my time with this and really rub it in until you repent.

Are you confusing the Apostle Peter with our forum friend, Peterlag?

The Apostle said in 1 Peter 1:16 to "be holy as I am holy."

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist @mikesw

I added Mike with you since he agreed with you.

As the Son, Jesus did not exist "before" he was conceived in Luke one's account, which is God's testimony to us when He begat His Son, Jesus Christ.

AS you say above....

“As the Son, Jesus did not exist before He was conceived in Luke 1.”

“The eternal Word who already existed with the Father became the Son in human flesh at the incarnation — He didn’t begin to exist then; He began to be called ‘Son’ in a new way.”​

​

5 Verses ​

Verse	What It Says	Why It Destroys Your Claim
John 1:1–2, 14	“In the beginning was the Word… the Word was with God and was God… The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”	The person already existed eternally; only the human nature began at the incarnation.
John 17:5	Jesus prays: “Glorify Me… with the glory I had with You before the world existed.”	Jesus personally claims pre-existence — long before Luke 1.
Philippians 2:6–7	“Who, being in very form God… took on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”	He already existed in God’s form → then added human nature.
Colossians 1:16–17	“By Him all things were created… He is before all things.”	The same “Him” (Jesus, v. 15–20) created everything → existed before Mary.
Micah 5:2 (OT prophecy of Bethlehem)	“His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.”	The ruler born in Bethlehem has eternal origins.

Luke 1 tellls us when Jesus began to be human~ not when He began to exist.

John 1:1-14 and John 17:5 are crystal clear.... the person we now call Jesus is the eternal Word who was with the Father before creation At the incarnation He ADDDED a human nature and began to be called "the Son " in that new sense.... But He, himself, is from eternity.

That is why the angel said in Luke 1:32, " He will be called the Son of the Most High" the title is new, the person is not.

ALWAYS REMEMBER!!!!

“Mary gave birth to the Son in time — but the Son gave birth to time itself.” (John 1:3)

Now Red, I know you are going to say that Jesus as Son never was until his birth.

What about the Word being the Son????????????????????????????????????????????/

The New Testament REPEATEDLY identifies the eternal Word with the eternal Son:

Verse	APPLICATION TO ETERNAL WORD/ETERNAL SON
John 1:14 + 1:18	“The Word became flesh… the only-begotten Son… the only-begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father…” (best Greek texts) → the Word = the only-begotten Son.
John 3:16 + John 1:1–3	“God sent His only-begotten Son” — the same “Word” through whom “all things were made.”
1 John 1:1–2	“That which was from the beginning… the Word of life… the eternal life which was with the Father…” → then v. 3 calls Him His Son Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:2–3	God spoke “by His Son… through whom He made the universe… the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” → This is the same Logos language of John 1.
Revelation 19:13	“His name is the Word of God” — and He is the King of kings who was slain (v. 16) → clearly Jesus the Son.

The Bible explicitly calls the eternal Word “the Son” — not just after Bethlehem.
“The Bible never separates ‘the Word’ from ‘the Son.’John 1:1–14 says the eternal Word became flesh and is the only-begotten Son/God (v. 18).Jesus prays He had glory with the Father before the world began (John 17:5).God was already ‘Father’ in eternity because the Son was already ‘Son’ in eternity — the relationship didn’t start in Mary’s womb.”

Your understanding paves the way for Jesus being the eternal Son of God which is an impossibility, or words have no meaning. Your understanding makes Jesus less than God and destroys/denies his eternality. I have already went over this in details in the beginning of this thread or one similar to this one.

I ask you and Mike ~ "Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."

Another question: "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? Which is a main truth of being God of the holy scriptures. You have a serious hole in your understanding of the Godhead. Those who reject Jesus being God know this more than you do, and know they have you over a barrow. That's one reason why you can never prove them to be wrong in their doctrine (which they are) yet your dotrince truly gives them life to their corruption of the Godhead.

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise.

We can easily prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense. I have said this many time, but it is worth repeating:

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

This is a given, since God is a Spirit, that's who God IS! Genesis 1:1 is God period! Without any qualifications. God was not a Father in the sense of begetting a Son in the matter in which Jesus was begotten until Luke one's testimony. If so, prove it with scriptures. Who is the eternal mother of His Son? It is vain man talking without scriptural verses to support them.


Jesus was one with God in His deity in his Eternal Divine nature being in the bosom of God from everlasting as the Alpha and Omega of all things.

John 1:18​

“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

John 1:1​

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

The Word was with God, as far as his eternal Divine nature goes as being the One true God that inhabits eternity. The scriptures does not say the Son was with God, the ONE and True God is the Eternal Spirit that created all things who had a Son in time as we know time around two thousand years ago, per the testimony of God which we believe in.

He chose his people from before the foundation of the world and loved us in Christ, yet we too were born in time, and certainly are not eternal accept in God eternal purposes that He would do by creating.

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

The eternal Sonship position destroys Jesus' Deity as the One True God that created all thing which he was!

And all of God's children said: Amen, and Amen.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus said He is the life, and the Father's testimony written by John speaks of "eternal life" is in His Son.
Is the Father's testimony still true nine verse onward in 1John 5:20?

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
1John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

God gave Jesus life and eternal life too.

John 5
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

Jesus received eternal life. Remember, he was dead and then he was alive forever when he was not alive forever before that. He was given eternal life after God resurrected him. That's the pattern for how to get eternal life for everyone in Scripture.

Revelation 1
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God gave Jesus life and eternal life too.

John 5
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

Jesus was more than just flesh. The life of the body of Christ was in His blood.

Jesus received eternal life. Remember, he was dead and then he was alive forever when he was not alive forever before that. He was given eternal life after God resurrected him. That's the pattern for how to get eternal life for everyone in Scripture.

Revelation 1
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

Your body without your spirit can live for a very short time. You know nothing about your own body.

Do you look forward to corruption? People will clean your body from where you defecate all over yourself when you die. People will put makeup on your body and break your back to make your body lay down in the casket. They will wire your bones together so people can come by and talk about how good you look.

Jesus didn't face any of this. You will.

 

[Red Baker]

@Peterlag @Runningman @Jim

@Peterlag @Runningman

Still waiting on you and @Runningman to answer.

Waiting on a response from either of you two.

Last call.............Still waiting.....

The Son was the Word that took on the flesh and blood of a human being. The Word was distinct from the Father. With all due respect you are assigning to the spiritual beings of the Father, Word and Holy Spirit inappropriate limitations that apply to physical beings. That is natural. We have no experiential understanding of spirits, and certainly not of the Spirits.

Greetings Jim, I have been thinking of you lately, realizing I have not seen you very much, I trust you are doing well, as well as you can at your age. It is good to know that you are still able to post, keep up the good work and I pray that our God will add strength to your days so that you can do what you love to do. The Lord be with you brother.

God's had a Son made of flesh by the will of God ~ and Yes, I know this is a great mystery, yet we must speak where we have scriptures supporting us. The Word in the beginning was God, period, without any qualification whatsoever. The scripture does not say that the Word was Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, for Jesus is not the second person of the trinity but he was God from the beginning. Each were God from the beginning, there is no tier of the Godhead as far as their deity goes, each one is God period~there is only ONE LORD God. We have a trinity only in the redemption of God's elect.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you confusing the Apostle Peter with our forum friend, Peterlag?

The Apostle said in 1 Peter 1:16 to "be holy as I am holy."

So are you promoting these forum Unitarians or not?

 

[FreeInChrist]

God's had a Son made of flesh by the will of God ~ and Yes, I know this is a great mystery, yet we must speak where we have scriptures supporting us.

We have scripture:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Conclusion= The Word was Made flesh.)

The Word in the beginning was God, period, without any qualification whatsoever.

We have scripture"
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,"

Yes indeedy... a great mystery as to how the Word could be God period when the Word also was with God.

Did they maybe use mirrors?

The scripture does not say that the Word was Jesus, the second person of the Trinity,

We have scripture.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Alert!!! We have the Word who was made flesh. We have the Word who then is God's only begotten. We have an angel who said that when the Word was born in the flesh....RB, dont be cute... you know what I am saying....Matt 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

We have scripture that is telling us that the Word who is God's only begotten... became flesh... and Mary and Joseph had higher powers telling them his name had to be Jesus.... This is all scriptural.

for Jesus is not the second person of the trinity but he was God from the beginning.

Wrong because this means that God was walking on earth until God himself was crucified.

That is so wrong, ad I wont use the words I want to on this one,

Each were God from the beginning, there is no tier of the Godhead as far as their deity goes, each one is God period~there is only ONE LORD God. We have a trinity only in the redemption of God's elect.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was more than just flesh. The life of the body of Christ was in His blood.



Your body without your spirit can live for a very short time. You know nothing about your own body.

Do you look forward to corruption? People will clean your body from where you defecate all over yourself when you die. People will put makeup on your body and break your back to make your body lay down in the casket. They will wire your bones together so people can come by and talk about how good you look.

Jesus didn't face any of this. You will.

"I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!" means Jesus wasn't always alive forever. Therefore he received eternal life. Deal with it. He's not God. You won't be allowed to keep your idol here.

 

[Runningman]

@Peterlag @Runningman @Jim

Last call.............Still waiting.....

I am not sure what you're asking.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!" means Jesus wasn't always alive forever. Therefore he received eternal life. Deal with it. He's not God. You won't be allowed to keep your idol here.

You have no chance of preventing me from worshipping Jesus Christ.

You're ignoring the fact you're going to find corruption in death. That is your destiny. It is inevitable.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The more you try to pretend you're Jesus the more you fail. Keep it up.

Let me know when you want your Elijah moment.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not sure what you're asking.

You're not sure of anything. Have your Elijah moment. Let God speak in this life in your condemnation.

 

[Runningman]

You have no chance of preventing me from worshipping Jesus Christ.

You're ignoring the fact you're going to find corruption in death. That is your destiny. It is inevitable.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The more you try to pretend you're Jesus the more you fail. Keep it up.

Let me know when you want your Elijah moment.

I am not trying to stop you from doing anything, but for your benefit it would be better to cease your unrepentant sin. I can only bring the horse to water, but I can't make it drink. I am just making sure you will be brought under judgement so you won't have any excuses. There will be no arguing at that time when you meet your maker and He asks why you refused to do His will.

The will of the Father is to worship Him only as Jesus taught:

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven:

Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

The rest are unceremoniously destroyed, forgotten forever:

Matthew 13
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

I recommend this for you and your church and kin:

Luke 18
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not trying to stop you from doing anything, but for your benefit it would be better to cease your unrepentant sin. I can only bring the horse to water, but I can't make it drink. I am just making sure you will be brought under judgement so you won't have any excuses. There will be no arguing at that time when you meet your maker and He asks why you refused to do His will.

The will of the Father is to worship Him only as Jesus taught:

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven:

Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

The rest are unceremoniously destroyed, forgotten forever:

Matthew 13
41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

I recommend this for you and your church and kin:

Luke 18
13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Don't lie. You're trying to stop me from worshipping Jesus Christ.

That is your goal. You can't accomplish this because it has nothing to do with you. Nothing. All you have is a mouth than can be stopped by God.

 

[Runningman]

Don't lie. You're trying to stop me from worshipping Jesus Christ.

That is your goal. You can't accomplish this because it has nothing to do with you. Nothing. All you have is a mouth than can be stopped by God.

I just want you to follow what Jesus' teachings are. He didn't teach anyone to worship him. He taught people to worship the Father and it's the only teaching on who to worship in the Bible. Similarly, he only taught people to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. You are in an intense spiritual warfare within you. You are resisting what Jesus said to do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I just want you to follow what Jesus' teachings are. He didn't teach anyone to worship him. He taught people to worship the Father and it's the only teaching on who to worship in the Bible. Similarly, he only taught people to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. You are in an intense spiritual warfare within you. You are resisting what Jesus said to do.

I'm in love with Jesus Christ. I'm John the Beloved and John the Baptist. You're actively diminishing Christ.

Have you asked anyone to heal someone you love? I have. He answered me. I prayed to Jesus Christ and HE answered me. This is more than words to me.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

I know... I know....

You wouldn't ask Jesus for anything.... right?

 

[Runningman]

I'm in love with Jesus Christ. I'm John the Beloved and John the Baptist. You're actively diminishing Christ.

Have you asked anyone to heal someone you love? I have. He answered me. I prayed to Jesus Christ and HE answered me. This is more than words to me.

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

I know... I know....

You wouldn't ask Jesus for anything.... right?

I'm also in love with Jesus Christ. I love his teachings and adore him, but I love God more. I will not sit by idly while you misrepresent God, Jesus, and Scripture. It's one thing to be ignorant and mislead, it's quite another thing to be shown what Scripture says is truthful, turn, and tear the messenger to pieces, and return to darkness. Stockholm syndrome is indeed a real things, some do love their captors more than the freedom they could potentially have. I encourage you to seek the truth and then you will be free.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm also in love with Jesus Christ. I love his teachings and adore him, but I love God more. I will not sit by idly while you misrepresent God, Jesus, and Scripture. It's one thing to be ignorant and mislead, it's quite another thing to be shown what Scripture says is truthful, turn, and tear the messenger to pieces, and return to darkness. Stockholm syndrome is indeed a real things, some do love their captors more than the freedom they could potentially have. I encourage you to seek the truth and then you will be free.

You can't love Jesus Christ and deny Him at the same time.

You can't love God more than Jesus Christ. That is utterly preposterous. God rebuke you Satan.

 

[Runningman]

You can't love Jesus Christ and deny Him at the same time.

You can't love God more than Jesus Christ. That is utterly preposterous. God rebuke you Satan.

Uh, I don't deny Jesus. Jesus is the begotten Son of God and Messiah as Scripture states. He is my Lord and Christ, the one God made such. I am a Christian. You seem silly having no idea what you're talking about going around with your impotent rebukes against real Christians. By the way, I am not going anywhere.

 

[Red Baker]

@Runningman @Peterlag

I am not sure what you're asking.

See #3079, or just follow the arrow back it will eventually take you there.