Runningman
Active Member
There are no pre-existence verses. Feel free to add them if you have any examples of what Jesus was doing before he was a man. So far no one on earth has found them.
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
Based on your opening statement, I know you are not representing Peter correctly because that's not something Peter would say. You obviously misunderstood the context or are desperate to smear him. Why sin publicly just because you got sour grapes about losing a debate? And you're going to have to TRY A LOT harder than school yard taunts and insults. My skin is just about as thick as they come.
That is pure ignorance and/or forgetfulness on your part. That is why no one trusts anything you say.
John 1 shows it. John 17:5 shows it.
This certainly is not pre-existence of someone in human form but points to his divinity. Maybe perhaps you are wanting to say it is reincarnation.
The lesson here is that you do not post selective interpretation of narrow passages and put them into a chart claiming the scriptures teach the unitarian heresy. You need full debate information. Put your arguments against the divinity of Christ in a book and deal with the passages that point to likely divinity of Christ in the Godhead. Otherwise, you are just deceiving people with pretty charts.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Read it yourself. He said these words "I never said nor do I teach that anyone should be like Jesus."
Peterlag
Active Member
Hide? What would I hide from? I did not say I'm the most knowledgeable person on the planet about Jesus Christ. I said I'm one of the most knowledgeable guys on the planet concerning the subject of the resurrected Christ Jesus. And you said you have a relationship with the Christ? You don't even know who he is.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Then take my challenge. We have an open public video/ audio debate and we can see.
Don't be a coward. Notice I didn't call you a coward. I cautioned you against being a coward.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Sometimes I believe is nothing more than an online troll.......
Sure. Maybe a de-evangelist. They are not here to debate but only to propagate. I have not heard one point that they changed or investigated deeply through debate here.
Runningman
Active Member
Again, show some verses about what Jesus was doing before he was born. The OT is a good place for you to start. Where is Jesus there?
Runningman
Active Member
So I have caught you in a lie. You said "Peter said to not follow Jesus or be like Jesus."
Where did Peter say that? Don't think you will be released from this anytime soon. I will take my time with this and really rub it in until you repent.
you forget everything so quickly that you would forget if I reminded you again. When showing probable events of the divine One as the Angel of the Lord and became seen as Jesus, you provide some other passage that, despite not rejecting that finding, you share as an argument.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Did Jesus come from above?
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Ask Peter to weigh in on this. Does he believe that Jesus should be followed? I quoted the words he said. I even responded to him.
Much like @charismaticlady ......You don't know your forum "friend".
I didn't lie about anything You tell me what that statement means to you. Here is again.
"I never said nor do I teach that anyone should be like Jesus."
I think this is rather silly statement to make and call yourself a Christian. Would you agree?
If you're not going to follow Jesus or be like Jesus, then stop call yourself a Christian. You're not.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I suppose Jesus was just a temporal being that "came from above"............
I started a thread when most of these Unitarians first started showing up here about what John the Baptist said about Christ.
They have the opposite position. Christ must decrees and they must increase......
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Peterlag
Active Member
I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament...
and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught somewhere by someone. And it is not. Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught somewhere by someone. And it is not. Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
A reminder to the unitarian:
It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.
Runningman
Active Member
I'm starting to love ChatGPT because it's so useful. It's kinda sad it has a better spiritual compass than trinitarians though. I didn't even prompt it to respond this way. AI thinks trinitarianism is baloney.
| Topic | What Trinitarians Believe | What the Bible Says |
|---|---|---|
| Nature of God | God is one Being in three coequal, coeternal Persons. | “The Father… is the only true God.” (John 17:3); “For us there is one God, the Father.” (1 Cor 8:6) |
| Identity of Jesus | Jesus is God the Son, the second Person of the Trinity, fully God and fully man. | “A man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40); “God has made this Jesus… both Lord and Christ.” (Acts 2:36) |
| Jesus’ Relationship to the Father | Jesus is coequal and coeternal with the Father in essence. | “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28); “The head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3) |
| Jesus’ Source of Authority | Jesus has inherent divine authority. | “All authority… has been given to me.” (Matt 28:18) |
| Jesus’ Knowledge | Jesus is omniscient as God but limited only according to His human nature. | “The Son does not know… only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) |
| Who God Raised from the Dead | Jesus raised Himself because He is God. | “God raised Him from the dead.” (Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; Rom 10:9) |
| Worship | Jesus and the Holy Spirit deserve worship as God. | “You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only shall you serve.” (Matt 4:10); Jesus calls the Father His God (John 20:17) |
| Holy Spirit | The Holy Spirit is a distinct divine Person equal to Father and Son. | “I will pour out My Spirit,” says God. (Joel 2:28 → Acts 2:17); “The Holy Spirit of God.” (Eph 4:30) |
| Jesus’ Life/Essence | Jesus has inherent self-existent divine life (because He is God). | “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself.” (John 5:26) |
| Creator | Jesus, as God the Son, created the world. | “God… made the world through Him.” (Heb 1:2); Jesus says: “I can do nothing by myself.” (John 5:19) |
| God’s Visibility | Jesus is God incarnate, seen by humanity. | “No one has ever seen God.” (John 1:18); “He is the image of the invisible God.” (Col 1:15) |
| Greatest Commandment | Implies worship of the Triune God. | “The LORD is one… you shall love the LORD your God.” (Mark 12:29) |
| Salvation | One must believe Jesus is God to be saved. | Belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God leads to life. (John 20:31) |
| God and Jesus’ Will | Jesus’ will is identical to God’s will because they share the same divine nature. | “Not my will, but Yours be done.” (Luke 22:42) |
| Prayer | You can pray directly to Jesus because He is God. | Jesus teaches: “Pray to your Father.” (Matt 6:6,9) |
| God Alone Is Immortal | Father, Son, and Spirit are all inherently immortal. | God “alone has immortality.” (1 Tim 6:16) |
Yes, Jesus said He is the life, and the Father's testimony written by John speaks of "eternal life" is in His Son.
Is the Father's testimony still true nine verse onward in 1John 5:20?
John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
1John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
By all these belief comparison, Unitarians cannot call Jesus God, in opposition to the Father. (Heb 1:8,9)
@FreeInChrist @mikesw
As the Son, Jesus did not exist "before" he was conceived in Luke one's account, which is God's testimony to us when He begat His Son, Jesus Christ. Your understanding paves the way for Jesus being the eternal Son of God which is an impossibility, or words have no meaning. Your understanding makes Jesus less than God and destroys/denies his eternality. I have already went over this in details in the beginning of this thread or one similar to this one.
I ask you and Mike ~ "Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."
Another question: "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? Which is a main truth of being God of the holy scriptures. You have a serious hole in your understanding of the Godhead. Those who reject Jesus being God know this more than you do, and know they have you over a barrow. That's one reason why you can never prove them to be wrong in their doctrine (which they are) yet your dotrince truly gives them life to their corruption of the Godhead.
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise.
We can easily prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense. I have said this many time, but it is worth repeating:
The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
Jesus was one with God in His deity in his Eternal Divine nature being in the bosom of God from everlasting as the Alpha and Omega of all things.
The Word was with God, as far as his eternal Divine nature goes as being the One true God that inhabits eternity. The scriptures does not say the Son was with God, the ONE and True God is the Eternal Spirit that created all things who had a Son in time as we know time around two thousand years ago, per the testimony of God which we believe in.
The eternal Sonship position destroys Jesus' Deity as the One True God that created all thing which he was!
I added Mike with you since he agreed with you.
As the Son, Jesus did not exist "before" he was conceived in Luke one's account, which is God's testimony to us when He begat His Son, Jesus Christ. Your understanding paves the way for Jesus being the eternal Son of God which is an impossibility, or words have no meaning. Your understanding makes Jesus less than God and destroys/denies his eternality. I have already went over this in details in the beginning of this thread or one similar to this one.
I ask you and Mike ~ "Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind."
Another question: "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? Which is a main truth of being God of the holy scriptures. You have a serious hole in your understanding of the Godhead. Those who reject Jesus being God know this more than you do, and know they have you over a barrow. That's one reason why you can never prove them to be wrong in their doctrine (which they are) yet your dotrince truly gives them life to their corruption of the Godhead.
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise.
We can easily prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense. I have said this many time, but it is worth repeating:
The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
This is a given, since God is a Spirit, that's who God IS! Genesis 1:1 is God period! Without any qualifications. God was not a Father in the sense of begetting a Son in the matter in which Jesus was begotten until Luke one's testimony. If so, prove it with scriptures. Who is the eternal mother of His Son? It is vain man talking without scriptural verses to support them.
Jesus was one with God in His deity in his Eternal Divine nature being in the bosom of God from everlasting as the Alpha and Omega of all things.
John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”The Word was with God, as far as his eternal Divine nature goes as being the One true God that inhabits eternity. The scriptures does not say the Son was with God, the ONE and True God is the Eternal Spirit that created all things who had a Son in time as we know time around two thousand years ago, per the testimony of God which we believe in.
He chose his people from before the foundation of the world and loved us in Christ, yet we too were born in time, and certainly are not eternal accept in God eternal purposes that He would do by creating.
2nd Timothy 1:9
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”The eternal Sonship position destroys Jesus' Deity as the One True God that created all thing which he was!
And all of God's children said: Amen, and Amen.
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