Your Views on The Trinity

[Runningman]

Well then you must place a lot of faith in a human person; depending upon faith in a human person for salvation and worshipping him.

Phil 2:9–11For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:12–14saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Heb 1:6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Matt 28:9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Luke 24:52–53 (NASB 95) — 52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising God.

John 9:38 (NASB 95) — 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Matt 14:33And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

What about them? Read what the verses actually say.

Philippians 2:9, do you see the part where "God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name?" Means Jesus was put in a position and received a name that he previously didn't have. That's the way English works in this verse without making theological assumptions. Paul conclude in Philippians 2:11 that only the Father is God and only the Father gets the glory. If God is a trinity, then Paul wouldn't have stripped the trinity of its glory, but rather he would have defined them and same "they" get the glory, rather than a singular "He" (the Father) being the God who gets the glory.

So we already know based off of what you have shown so far that Jesus isn't God. It wouldn't follow that out of the blue that Jesus is suddenly God in Revelation 5:12. Actually, if you begin with Revelation 5:11 you and see they are worshipping around the throne where God is, not the same throne as where the Lamb is.

Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders. And their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.

The Lamb in Revelation 5:13 is not the Throne Sitter:

Revelation 5
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne
and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!”

Where the angels, creatures, and elders worshipped is before the throne where Revelation 5:11 says they are:

Revelation 5
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

So there are no verses about the Lamb being worshipped in Scripture. Why? Because the the Lamb is not Lord God Almighty.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Begin with that and see if that sets you straight.

 

[Runningman]

@Peterlag

To which we will add: By confessing Jesus is God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was begotten, proves that he's equal to God! Again, even his enemies understood this truth that you, @amazing grace @Runningman does not understand. Again:

John 5:18​

“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”

Actually, Paul taught that others are God's begotten sons/daughters as well.

Paul taught that being God's begotten sons like Jesus (God's offspring) does not make them like the Divine Being because they are human, they are created, just like how gold and silver are created. Safe bet for you to avoid idolatry is that anything created, a human or otherwise, is not God. Do you agree with that?

Acts 17
29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.
30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[TomL]

What about them? Read what the verses actually say.

Philippians 2:9, do you see the part where "God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name?" Means Jesus was put in a position and received a name that he previously didn't have. That's the way English works in this verse without making theological assumptions. Paul conclude in Philippians 2:11 that only the Father is God and only the Father gets the glory. If God is a trinity, then Paul wouldn't have stripped the trinity of its glory, but rather he would have defined them and same "they" get the glory, rather than a singular "He" (the Father) being the God who gets the glory.

So we already know based off of what you have shown so far that Jesus isn't God. It wouldn't follow that out of the blue that Jesus is suddenly God in Revelation 5:12. Actually, if you begin with Revelation 5:11 you and see they are worshipping around the throne where God is, not the same throne as where the Lamb is.

Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders. And their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.

The Lamb in Revelation 5:13 is not the Throne Sitter:

Revelation 5
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne
and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power
forever and ever!”

Where the angels, creatures, and elders worshipped is before the throne where Revelation 5:11 says they are:

Revelation 5
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

So there are no verses about the Lamb being worshipped in Scripture. Why? Because the the Lamb is not Lord God Almighty.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Begin with that and see if that sets you straight.

And so you believe in worshipping Christ while believing he is just human?

BTW however you deny Christ receives glory?

Is that right?

Rev 5:12–13saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
1 Pet 1:21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

John 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[TomL]

Saying you are the son of God does not make you God.

It makes you equal to God

and scripture states he existed in the form of God

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[mikesw]

It makes you equal to God

and scripture states he existed in the form of God

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Interesting ideas come from this last interaction.

Jesus does not come as a son of man. He comes as the Son of Man.
Jesus is not a son of God. Jesus reveals himself as the Son of God.

What a difference a day makes and the difference, in this case, is the determinant. But unitarians will pretend the specificity is not there.

 

[Red Baker]

@amazing grace

I don't see Jesus, the only begotten Son of God as the God of Genesis 1:1. God the Father is the God of Genesis 1:1.

Jesus was not the only begotten Son of Genesis 1:1...he was God, period..... without any qualifications. God was not a Father to Jesus until Luke 1.

Luke 1:31​

“And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.”

Luke 1:35​

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

God the Father is the God of Genesis 1:1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God! It is man adds his own word to this one verse and comes up with all kind of false teachings. There's is only ONE GOD, yet manifest to us as three "only" according to the work of redemption for God's elect and in no other sense is there three God's ~ impossible for it to be so.

Jesus could do nothing without God his Father; it was God doing the mighty works and wonders and signs.

It is not that Jesus could not, yet as man, he trusted in God and God did many wonderful works through him, not that he could not if he chose to do so, yet he came to do God's will as man, not his own will. He came as a surety for God's elect, and to lay down his life for each one that God gave to him to redeem. John 17. He finished the word God gave him to do.

So we have God manifest in the flesh as Jesus yet we also have God a Spirit who is not Jesus Christ but the Father of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is God - God is not Jesus - God is a Spirit. . . . okee dokee then. It seems you just went off on a tangent with no rhyme or reason . . . Maybe my fellow Unitarians can make more sense of this than I did. Thanks for including me in the conversation.

 

[Red Baker]

@Peterlag

Saying you are the son of God does not make you God.

I never said that it did. I was not begotten in the same manner Jesus was begotten.

It does put you in the same family to whatever the Father has. If you're a king then the son would be a prince and therefore share in the kingdom on equal ground pertaining to the kingdom. If your dad is a business owner then it would put you on equal ground in the family business to share in the wealth and even run the business later on. The Jews understood that custom and even we do today in our country.

Maybe, but that's not the point......... Jesus is God's "only" begotten Son conceived by Him. Ever heard of DNA? Jesus was unique, the Eternal God was his Father making him equal to God, and his mighty works and perfect life of faith and obedience prove Jesus to be the express image of who God is!

Philippians 2:6​

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”

Peter, you and @Runningman, and @amazing grace will lose this battle, for the scriptures will prove your doctrine to be false. Jesus Christ is: The I'AM THAT I'AM.

John 8:58​

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

 

[civic]

As Jesus said, He is the life "eternal life" is He a thing to you?

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Amen

 

[dwight92070]

As believers, we will go to heaven when we die.

"The Lord has established His throne in heaven, and His Kingdom rules over all. Ps.103:19
So God the Father is the Supreme Being in heaven.

But Peter gives us additional information about heaven in 2 Peter 1:10-11

"... for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

So now we have heaven being called the Kingdom of God the Father AND the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Are there 2 Kingdoms in heaven? Are there 2 Kings in heavens? NO and OF COURSE NOT.

The Kingdom of the our Father and the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, obviously are one and the same. And no wonder because Jesus and the Father are ONE.

Notice too that in Revelation 22:1 and 3, that God and the Lamb sit on one throne.

Verse 1: "... a river ... clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb."
Verse 3: "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His (Singular) bond-servants will serve Him (Singular).

Did you notice that God and the Lamb together are referred to with singular pronouns, His and Him?

 

[dwight92070]

As believers, we will go to heaven when we die.

"The Lord has established His throne in heaven, and His Kingdom rules over all. Ps.103:19
So God the Father is the Supreme Being in heaven.

But Peter gives us additional information about heaven in 2 Peter 1:10-11

"... for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

So now we have heaven being called the Kingdom of God the Father AND the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Are there 2 Kingdoms in heaven? Are there 2 Kings in heavens? NO and OF COURSE NOT.

The Kingdom of the our Father and the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, obviously are one and the same. And no wonder because Jesus and the Father are ONE.

Notice too that in Revelation 22:1 and 3, that God and the Lamb sit on one throne.

Verse 1: "... a river ... clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb."
Verse 3: "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His (Singular) bond-servants will serve Him (Singular).

Did you notice that God and the Lamb together are referred to with singular pronouns, His and Him?

So we see the Supreme Being in heaven identified as God and the Lamb, sitting on one throne.

 

[Runningman]

And so you believe in worshipping Christ while believing he is just human?

BTW however you deny Christ receives glory?

Is that right?

Rev 5:12–13saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
1 Pet 1:21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

John 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus' disciples shared the glory God gave to Jesus. So your argument still doesn't work.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

 

[TomL]

Jesus' disciples shared the glory God gave to Jesus. So your argument still doesn't work.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

The first question was

And so you believe in worshipping Christ while believing he is just human?

Can you answer it

The second was

BTW however you deny Christ receives glory?

Is that right?

Rev 5:12–13 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
1 Pet 1:21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

John 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Based upon what you do write, can we affirm you accept the glorification of Christ even before the world was?

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag

I never said that it did. I was not begotten in the same manner Jesus was begotten.

Maybe, but that's not the point......... Jesus is God's "only" begotten Son conceived by Him. Ever heard of DNA? Jesus was unique, the Eternal God was his Father making him equal to God, and his mighty works and perfect life of faith and obedience prove Jesus to be the express image of who God is!

Philippians 2:6​

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”

Peter, you and @Runningman, and @amazing grace will lose this battle, for the scriptures will prove your doctrine to be false. Jesus Christ is: The I'AM THAT I'AM.

John 8:58​

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

Yes you did say it did. You wrote it like this...

By confessing Jesus is God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was begotten, proves that he's equal to God!

Page 2951

 

[Peterlag]

It makes you equal to God

and scripture states he existed in the form of God

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Then I am equal to my father since I'm the son of my father.

 

[TomL]

Then I am equal to my father since I'm the son of my father.

Yes, you are of the same form as and equal to your father.

 

[mikesw]

Then I am equal to my father since I'm the son of my father.

sure. your father and mother gave you birth. so you are of the same hypostasis as them.
Jesus is of his Father and mother and has the combined hypostases -- bith divinity and humanity.
Theology works well as long as people do not claim to be of the same hypostasis as Jesus

 

[Peterlag]

sure. your father and mother gave you birth. so you are of the same hypostasis as them.
Jesus is of his Father and mother and has the combined hypostases -- bith divinity and humanity.
Theology works well as long as people do not claim to be of the same hypostasis as Jesus

Was Mary God too?

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, you are of the same form as and equal to your father.

What about the mother of God? Is Mary God too?

 

[mikesw]

What about the mother of God? Is Mary God too?

I cannot quite work from your doctrine of calling Mary the mother of God. Maybe you can share how your doctrine works.

I certainly do not think she was selected because she happened to be a goddess pretending to be a human. If that is your thought, you are still not following Christian doctrine.

 

[Runningman]

I cannot quite work from your doctrine of calling Mary the mother of God. Maybe you can share how your doctrine works.

I certainly do not think she was selected because she happened to be a goddess pretending to be a human. If that is your thought, you are still not following Christian doctrine.

The Catholics had to kind a fall on their own sword with that one, so to speak, because to deny that Mary is the mother of God is to realize that Jesus is not God.