brightfame52
Active Member
They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4 you can't receive this
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
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brightfame52
Active Member
Seem like you can't read
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Not true. The means of Abel's death wasn't God. The means of Abel's death wasn't some "time frame" predetermined by God. The means of Abel's death was his brother. His brother acted contrary to Abel and God and MURDERED Abel.
I know you can't accept this because of your predetermined solution but don't pretend it isn't an answer. It is. Give it some thought and stop immediately dismissing it. Give me two of your brain cells instead of one. < just an example.
You are way off once again.
The issue here concerns those who were stated to have passed from death to life while physically live
Newsflash this is not about Adam or Eve
Ephesians 2:1–5 (LEB) — 1 And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
These are living people who were dead in their trespasses and sin
How were they dead?
You have provided no answer.
Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Again these people were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of their flesh but were made alive having forgiven their trespasses
How were they dead?
You have provided no answer.
1 Timothy 5:6 (LEB) — 6 But the one who lives for sensual pleasure is dead even though she lives.
This woman was currently dead
How so?
You have provided no answer.
Here one is dead though physically alive
1 John 3:14 (LEB) — 14 We know that we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
These all passed from death
What death did they pass from?
You have provided no answer.
1 John 3:14 (LEB) — 14 We know that we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
What death are these passing from?
Again
It is not physical and your denial of a form of death that is not physical is unbiblical
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Adam passed from death to life. Eve did too. So what in the world are you talking about?
You are confused.
I do not hold to determinism
That is Calvinism
You have not only misunderstood my position but you do not even address the verses I quoted to show another form of death which is not physical
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Since you're responding quickly, I'll not edit my other response. I'll add this....
Are you one of those people that believe Eternal life didn't exist for man until after the Resurrection of Christ?
I'm curious. I know Adam and Eve are alive right now. However, they're dead.
So which is it. Are they alive right now at this very moment or dead?
And I never suggested otherwise or even brought Abel up when speaking of a form of death that is not physical.
That indicates you are confused. Predeterminism is the Calvinist view, not my view.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm not determinist either. However, the very character of God demands a morality where all men are treated equally. Thusly, the very actions of humanity require a constant and definitive response that predetermined in the very Character/Essence of God.
Which means=equals. That God's response to every man be identical to one another.
You mean you do not understand?
I posted verses of people who were stated to have passed from death to life though they had never physically died
Showing there exists another form of death beyond physical death.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm not confused at all. I know this better than you do Tom. I don't have to do this. I can walk away at any time. I only care that you understand it better.
If you don't want to, I'll stop here.
If someone does something, they don't get a different answer Tom. It doesn't matter when it happened. God's character never changes. It is Immutable.
But Calvinists are. And in that position they hold God predetermined the very future of all men as to whether they would be unconditionally elected to salvation or reprobation.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
But it doesn't. It all revolves around physical death.
Again. Adam and Eve are physically dead? Are their bones with us now? I know they are. You know they are.
They are dead yet still alive. However, their body is dead. One day we will experience the same condition. We are not complete without a future change Tom. That will happen for all of us at the same time with our bodies.
Physical death is what seals everything.
Again you need to speak of God's character to the Calvinists
But you were in fact confused, as shown by your previous statement.
And I never suggested otherwise or even brought Abel up when speaking of a form of death that is not physical.
That indicates you are confused. Predeterminism is the Calvinist view, not my view.
All of my argument existed just to point out an existing form of death that is not physical.
Your statement simply ignores the multiple verses which speak of people still alive who had not physically died but had passed over from death to life
Ephesians 2:1–5 (LEB) — 1 And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
These are living people who were dead in their trespasses and sin
How were they dead?
You have provided no answer.
Colossians 2:13 (LEB) — 13 And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Again these people were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of their flesh but were made alive having forgiven their trespasses
How were they dead?
You have provided no answer.
1 Timothy 5:6 (LEB) — 6 But the one who lives for sensual pleasure is dead even though she lives.
This woman was currently dead
How so?
You have provided no answer.
Here one is dead though physically alive
1 John 3:14 (LEB) — 14 We know that we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
These all passed from death
What death did they pass from?
You have provided no answer.
1 John 3:14 (LEB) — 14 We know that we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
What death are these passing from?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Does it include physical death? How do you have this "form of death" that isn't physical?
You're creating a finality in form at every single moment of the physical life of an individual.
Let me guess. The "wrath of God" abideth on them???? with this "death" you recognize.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
They received Eternal Life Tom. That is what changed. They went from the disposition of death hanging over their lives to being free from that disposition of death over them.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is what Tom? We have an enemy. It still works in our lives at this very moment. An enemy that has it's work in us even though we possess Eternal Life.
Death still works in our members...... Tom.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
It is difficult to share my perspective with others. I hope I've been able to possibly do that here. Claim victory or whatever you feel necessary. From this point on, I'm going to limit my response to this to what I see as being meaningful.
Thanks
@praise_yeshua
Not Augustine but David, Paul and Christ ~Augustine just believed what they taught and so do I, and you would do well to believe this truth as well.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know differently. I can judge your words by what David, Paul and Christ said. I can then compare them to what Augustine said.
I know how they're different. Try me. Or get your pastor friends to help you.
So tell me how you're "total depraved" yet enlightened. It has long amazed me that people actually buy what you're selling. You can't know God without the Gospel. It is impossible for you to know God without the Gospel. Yet, that is exactly what you're preaching.
Those who passed from death to life
What death did they pass from?
There was a death they already had though they were physically alive.
What is it?
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