Would you sin..... to...

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Question for saints. Those born again.

Dr. B.R. Lakin once told of a women that challenged him on her son being in hell. She made the statement....

"If my son is in hell.... I want to be with my son".

I'm going to say this clearly so there is zero doubt concerning what I'm say.......

From time to time, I struggle with Universalism. If it were not for just a few verses in the Scriptures, I believe that I would be a Universalist. Not that I not against sin. I am. Not that I don't believe in evil... I do. Absolutely. I believe in evil. I believe in morality. I'm probably harder on ethics/morality than most anyone you have every meet.

However, I do not believe that evil actually... CHALLENGES.... Good. God is above evil. Incapable of evil. His Character is beyond reproach. He is altogether lovely....Evil could never challenge God. Evil is powerless against God.

I said all that to ask this question.

Would YOU... commit sin to save your own? To save those you love?
 
The ends do not justify the means.

I don't think we should do evil that good may come (Romans 3:8).

That would be the unloving thing to do.

At the very minimum, Adam was made peccable. I don't believe anyone can deny this. The proof is in his actions. However, it was Eve that was deceived. Adam knew exactly what he was doing. He did not realize the sum of everything his actions meet but he knew God meant what He said.

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Adam sinned to save Eve.

If you can accept it..... It worked.....

I can't help but recognize this life is all about how we see ourselves. We talk about sin as if it something that we are incapable of doing. Yet, we just keep do it. This isn't a reflection of others. It is a reflection of our own inabilities.

Adam spent his life and suffered death to save Eve. Even among those who are extraordinarily evil...... They are our brothers in Adam.

When I get angry at mankind and this world, I believe God reminds me of this.
 
Question for saints. Those born again.

Dr. B.R. Lakin once told of a women that challenged him on her son being in hell. She made the statement....

"If my son is in hell.... I want to be with my son".

I'm going to say this clearly so there is zero doubt concerning what I'm say.......

From time to time, I struggle with Universalism. If it were not for just a few verses in the Scriptures, I believe that I would be a Universalist. Not that I not against sin. I am. Not that I don't believe in evil... I do. Absolutely. I believe in evil. I believe in morality. I'm probably harder on ethics/morality than most anyone you have every meet.

However, I do not believe that evil actually... CHALLENGES.... Good. God is above evil. Incapable of evil. His Character is beyond reproach. He is altogether lovely....Evil could never challenge God. Evil is powerless against God.

I said all that to ask this question.

Would YOU... commit sin to save your own? To save those you love?
So DETAILS!!!! What SIN would you commit to "Save those you love"????

Be specific.
 
So DETAILS!!!! What SIN would you commit to "Save those you love"????

Be specific.

It might be better to ask the question......what sin wouldn't you commit? to save someone you love.

I'll make some admissions......

1. I love some people MORE than others. As much as I try not to, I must admit that I do.
2. There are times that I do not love myself in comparison to those I love. There are things I wouldn't do that would please me more..... because I love someone else.
3. I don't apply love equally. I try.... but I don't.

To be clear, I don't believe in utopias in this life. I don't believe it is possible. I'm not trying to say that I'm better than most. I'm not but I'm certainly not that different than most anyone else.

Would I lie to save someone else? Yes. I would.
Would I steal to save someone else? Yes, I would.

As far as who I would do this to save..... it depends on who the person is and what lie or theft I would have to commit to save someone. If it were my wife, I wouldn't hesitate to do just about anything short of denying the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just being honest. I don't have the power to accomplish many things. (Great theological lesson here.....)....
 
It might be better to ask the question......what sin wouldn't you commit? to save someone you love.

I'll make some admissions......

1. I love some people MORE than others. As much as I try not to, I must admit that I do.
So does everybody else, so no problem there.
2. There are times that I do not love myself in comparison to those I love. There are things I wouldn't do that would please me more..... because I love someone else.
Yup, been there-done that,
3. I don't apply love equally. I try.... but I don't.
Yup, same here. I don't try any more.
To be clear, I don't believe in utopias in this life. I don't believe it is possible. I'm not trying to say that I'm better than most. I'm not but I'm certainly not that different than most anyone else.

Would I lie to save someone else? Yes. I would.
Would I steal to save someone else? Yes, I would.

As far as who I would do this to save..... it depends on who the person is and what lie or theft I would have to commit to save someone. If it were my wife, I wouldn't hesitate to do just about anything short of denying the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just being honest. I don't have the power to accomplish many things. (Great theological lesson here.....)....
But I think that we BOTH know that the ONLY THING you're "saving them from" by lying, or stealing, is some inconvenience in their physical lives.

The SALVATION that's meaninful comes after physical death. And THAT has nothing to do with anybody but the person you're trying to "Save", and their One-on One relationship with God - made perfect by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross.
 
The SALVATION that's meaninful comes after physical death. And THAT has nothing to do with anybody but the person you're trying to "Save", and their One-on One relationship with God - made perfect by FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross.

I can agree but it more than just seeing salvation at the "end of the road"....

I can't condemn Adam for what he did for Eve. I would do the same thing. I would probably do the same thing NOW.

Which is where I'm coming from in my OP. If you take the question of the lady about wanting to be with her son in hell.........

Then this goes to the very nature of love associated with such love. Which is why I struggle with Universal Reconciliation.
 
Question for saints. Those born again.

Dr. B.R. Lakin once told of a women that challenged him on her son being in hell. She made the statement....

"If my son is in hell.... I want to be with my son".

I'm going to say this clearly so there is zero doubt concerning what I'm say.......

From time to time, I struggle with Universalism. If it were not for just a few verses in the Scriptures, I believe that I would be a Universalist. Not that I not against sin. I am. Not that I don't believe in evil... I do. Absolutely. I believe in evil. I believe in morality. I'm probably harder on ethics/morality than most anyone you have every meet.

However, I do not believe that evil actually... CHALLENGES.... Good. God is above evil. Incapable of evil. His Character is beyond reproach. He is altogether lovely....Evil could never challenge God. Evil is powerless against God.

I said all that to ask this question.

Would YOU... commit sin to save your own? To save those you love?
ImCo:
The absolute horror of evil will be so proven to people like this that they will give up their love for their loved one who will never repent. No one not condemned will be sad that the postponement of the judgment day is ended. Every saved person will be perfectly holy, in perfect accord with GOD with HIS decision to close the Satanic in hell.

She will either repent and let herself be trained in righteousness by harsh disciple, Heb 12:5-11 or she will be exposed as one of those condemned already.

This is the sin of Adam who, though he rejected the temptation of the serpent that Eve fell to, succumbed to a lack of faith in leaving his loved one, Eve, to the tender mercies of YHWH and so joined her in her in her sin, the coming redemption and training in sanctification.
 
ImCo:
The absolute horror of evil will be so proven to people like this that they will give up their love for their loved one who will never repent.

Can you provide Scripture?

No one not condemned will be sad that the postponement of the judgment day is ended. Every saved person will be perfectly holy, in perfect accord with GOD with HIS decision to close the Satanic in hell.

Jesus didn't die for Satan. He died for humanity. The comparison isn't valid.... or try to make it valid from the Scriptures.

She will either repent and let herself be trained in righteousness by harsh disciple, Heb 12:5-11 or she will be exposed as one of those condemned already.

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Those Scriptures are true now. Have you ceased from needing correction?

This is the sin of Adam who, though he rejected the temptation of the serpent that Eve fell to, succumbed to a lack of faith in leaving his loved one, Eve, to the tender mercies of YHWH and so joined her in her in her sin, the coming redemption and training in sanctification.

So you believe that if Adam would have abandoned Eve... then he would have gotten her back?

This is much more complicated that most even consider.
 
I can't condemn Adam for what he did for Eve.
His joining her in her sin wasn't for her but conformed to his lack of faith in the promises of YHWH that sinners like her, ie, elect but rebellious, would be redeemed and sanctified. HE couldn't come away from her and touch not her uncleanness but idolized her over his commitment to his GOD.

It is a tenant of my PCE that this is a template for all sin: First some people chose to rebuke YHWH as a liar and a false god and were condemned. Eve is the type for all elect who refused to heed YHWH's call to come out from among them and their uncleanness so they could be judged. These elect refused to accept the necessity of the damnation of their friends who chose to become demonic in HIS sight. Adam is the type for all those elect who rejected the temptations of the Satanic but who rebelled against the call to separate from his loved when she became a sinner determined by GOD to be sent away to be redeemed and trained in righteousness.
 
Can you provide Scripture?
Sure...and some hermeneutics too:


The reason GOD sows HIS people into the world and allows the devil to sow the people of evil among them (greatly out numbering them), Matt 13:36-39, is so HIS sinful people of the kingdom can learn by face to face experience that the tares are not who they claim to be, ie, they are not the same in nature as the slinful elect, but are as GOD claims them to be, ie, the abhorrent wicked, condemned already for being eternally sinful, unable to be redeemed.

If the story of the exodus is a metaphor for our personal journey out of slavery to sin to the Promised Land (Paradise, Eden restored) then we also wander in the wilderness of daily life because of our attitude to our evil and the evil of the reprobate tares being not so bad, ie, the sin of the Amorites is not yet full: Genesis 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." Anyone with any understanding of YHWH at all knows that their sin is full enough for HIM, He has condemned them already and is only waiting for the sinful elect to separated from them, 2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." so the postponement of their judgement may end,
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation (no more metaphor) of this parable in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness! Thus their sins separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth.

To prove to HIS sinful elect that the tares do not make good family people and must be judged, HE gave us the example of Abraham's generations and Lot's family. To prove that a Church of specially called ones does not make the reprobate worthy of eternal life HE gave us the Judges and the people went to idols. Then the people said "If we only had a King to lead us the tares would follow them and not have to be judged!" but the tares did not follow and the kings turned from YHWH and all was corrupt.

So, after trying to bring HIS sinful elect to repudiate the tares among them and to consign them to justice by means of a Patriarch to lead them, of a Judge to lead them, of a King to lead them, HE instituted the Holy Spirit Himself to lead HIS church to paradise by proving to them that the Amorites will never repent, they cannot receive the Holy Spirit and they must be left to HIS justice...they must be consigned to death, man woman and child before Paradise can be reached. Only when the last sinful elect, that is, legitimate child of GOD within the church, repents of their idolatry of the sinful Amorite, Cain, within the church and embraces HIS call for justice will the judgement day finally arrive, cleansing the world. That is why a life of holy godliness speeds up the coming of that terrible day: 2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and speeding / hastening the coming of the day of GOD.

There is NO worldly system of governance that will bring the reprobate to faith and end the suffering of their evil; no family, no wise man, no strong man, no holy man of the spirit can do this. They can only be dealt with by the Judgement Day and only when the heart of each lost sheep gives up HIS desire to protect the evil ones in his family, in his legal structure, in his country and in the church, from judgment of any kind and is willing to consign them all to death if HE so judges.

It is the sinful elect, the ones who can be redeemed but who not not think the evil of the non-believers (who are their children, friends and neighbours and fellow countrymen) are enough to judge them forever to hell that keeps us in this wilderness, out of the Promised Land. Only when our attitude to the judgement expresses the joy of Malachi 4:2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and frolic like calves from the stall, 3 [when] you will trample the wicked, for they will be as ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing, says the LORD of Hosts. the image that makes the so called holy church cringe with embarrassment and horror, will we ever be free of this world and its suffering. The image of being gathered into our LORD's barn while the tares are gathered and burnt is filled out and the full emotional experience of that event is given in this small verse from Malachi.

Jesus didn't die for Satan. He died for humanity. The comparison isn't valid.... or try to make it valid from the Scriptures.
Jesus died for the sinful good seed, the sinful people of HIS kingdom called the sheep gone astray into sin, not for all humanity and definitely not for the people of the evil one (Matt 13:36-39), the goats who are condemned to hell already, John 3:18.
 
So you believe that if Adam would have abandoned Eve... then he would have gotten her back?
Since they were made elect before the foundation of the world, and were obviously friends then, of course he knew in the abstract that to leave her to GOD's election promise of salvation was supposed to mean that he would to have her back someday BUT he apparently could not do this but felt he must stand against GOD for her sake...

I also suggest that because they rebelled against the judgements of GOD about sin because of their love of the sinners, they did not believe that they would be sinning but that YHWH must have gotten it wrong somehow. Love could not condemn anyone to hell and how could a finite sin have such an awful infinite punishment etc, etc... This is why they needed their eyes to be opened to their sinfulness which they refused to recognize until the serpent exposed his blatant lack of caring for Eve by corrupting her to open rebellion to GOD in the garden.
 
Sure...and some hermeneutics too:


The reason GOD sows HIS people into the world and allows the devil to sow the people of evil among them (greatly out numbering them), Matt 13:36-39, is so HIS sinful people of the kingdom can learn by face to face experience that the tares are not who they claim to be, ie, they are not the same in nature as the slinful elect, but are as GOD claims them to be, ie, the abhorrent wicked, condemned already for being eternally sinful, unable to be redeemed.

I have limited time for a while.... Also, I'm not looking for "Shotgun" theology.....

Satan can not give life to human kind. When you say Satan "sows".... then you're making Satan the creator of these individuals.

Satan sows seeds in the heart but he can not give human life to flesh. He can only kill and destroy.
 
Since they were made elect before the foundation of the world, and were obviously friends then, of course he knew in the abstract that to leave her to GOD's election promise of salvation was supposed to mean that he would to have her back someday BUT he apparently could not do this but felt he must stand against GOD for her sake...

I also suggest that because they rebelled against the judgements of GOD about sin because of their love of the sinners, they did not believe that they would be sinning but that YHWH must have gotten it wrong somehow. Love could not condemn anyone to hell and how could a finite sin have such an awful infinite punishment etc, etc... This is why they needed their eyes to be opened to their sinfulness which they refused to recognize until the serpent exposed his blatant lack of caring for Eve by corrupting her to open rebellion to GOD in the garden.

There is no such evidence for their pre-existence before the foundation of the world. Are you a Mormon?

Eve was deceived. Which is a sign of innocence and immaturity. Do you condemn your children for such actions?
 
I can agree but it more than just seeing salvation at the "end of the road"....

I can't condemn Adam for what he did for Eve. I would do the same thing. I would probably do the same thing NOW.

Which is where I'm coming from in my OP. If you take the question of the lady about wanting to be with her son in hell.........

Then this goes to the very nature of love associated with such love. Which is why I struggle with Universal Reconciliation.
That is an interesting view brother. Do you have any indication that’s why adam sinned was to protect or save her ? His sin condemned both of them instead of only one of them.
 
Adam sinned because he listened to the voice of his wife in opposition to what God declared (Genesis 3:16).

Adam, like all husbands today, are to be the spiritual leader ('head') in the relationship.

Adam should have said something like, "Eve, I am the man here. God put me in charge and that fruit is not to be eaten."
 
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam knew exactly what he was doing and what it meant to choose Eve.
I actually have heard that preached before many many moons ago. That Adam wasn't deceived but choose to follow Eve and take the consequences of disobeying God out of his love for her.

But then when he was confronted by God he wouldn't own up to his own action. His reply was “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” Genesis 3:12

That's why it's never a good idea to go by your feelings and emotions. Adam learned by what's called "The hard way." Must have been a terrible load to bear especially after the story of Cain and Abel.
 
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